Matier & Ross unveil Oakland sites
- 11.30.09, 09:39
- 129 Comments
We’ve been told Oakland’s going to release some information this week in conjunction with a renewed show of support from the City of Oakland, business leaders, and fans. Matier & Ross have the sites, two of which are completely new.
- The current Oakland Coliseum site.
- Oak and Third streets, just south of Jack London Square. [OFD Training]
- The old Howard Street terminal on the waterfront, a bit north of the Coliseum and on the other side of the Nimitz Freeway.
- Howard Street on the northeast side of the Embarcadero.
The fascinating thing is that while many – including myself – thought Howard Terminal would be one of the sites, the group is focusing instead on two sites along Howard Street, near High Street and 880. The area is in the vicinity of the site pitched by Chris Kidd, called Jingletown.
The ballpark in the picture would be shifted towards the upper left corner, on the other side of Home Depot.
I’m looking forward to the official unveiling. Chris Kidd, you may claim your prize at the concierge.
Nam Turk,
You need to understand that with our blue collar image, we have in fact been successful in the past as I already indicated in my previous post. Yes, I am a true fan that attends 35+ games a year whether we’re winning or loosing.
Take a look at the Giants with their “successful” new ballpark with zero titles…I wouldn’t be surprised if we see that type of tradition happening in San Jose.
It seems you think the blueness of one’s collar and on-field success are inversely proportional. Are you actually saying that a boost in revenue would keep the team from winning? The Oakland contingent has often cited that the Giants were no better off than the A’s in the Candlestick era, but there are no titles for them in those years. How do you rationalize this now?
That’s an easy answer, the Giants have and will always suck!!
It seems to me that the “passionate” Oakland-city-limits boosters here are out of touch with reality and have been reduced to noisily grasping at straws. Telling us about the great A’s teams of 37 years ago has no bearing on what’s going on now and will go on in the near future. The Brooklyn Dodgers, the NL’s great dynasty of the ’40s and ’50s, was an extraordinarily successful team at the gate and on the field, but they left town just two years after winning a WS, and a year after winning a pennant, because their owner was unable to get access to a site for a new ballpark that he was willing to pay for himself.
You only have a team in Oakland because owners had the freedom to relocate, first from Philadelphia, and then from Kansas City. Now it’s your turn to see a team pack up. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
If Facebook polls had any sihnificance, Sarah Palin would be president.
Be realistic and realize that your city and fanbase has missed the boat as far as a new ballpark goes. Be thankful for the nice run that the A’s had in Oaktown, and that the team is only moving 45 miles, not 2,500. You can still see them in San Jose, in a nicer park that you were able to provide.
The repetitious emotional arguments here have gotten very tiresome. Let’s stick to reality-based convo, please.
Uh what are you talking about Connie Mack?? We had a great team during this decade up until only a couple of years ago. Did you not attend any of the playoff games we were fortunate enough to make?
The Coliseum is the same from my house in Fremont than the proposed ballpark site at Diridon. So, it’s a slog either way.
The A’s won 5 world championships in Philadelphia. If the home city makes that much of a difference to the quality of the team on the field, maybe they should move back there.
Are you saying that the 1970′s teams weren’t being conspicuously bragged about in this thread?
Just three hours ago, somebody posted: “And last but not least, to top this impressive number of accomplishments they have also had four successful participations in the world series in the years of 1972, 1973, 1974, 1989 and the Yankees are the only other team to have ever won three in a row.” And also kept talking about the A’s accomplishments in the last 40 years.
That sure looks like nostalgic fan-talk to me.
So what if that was said? That doesn’t take away from anything we’ve done over the past 10 years now does it? Maybe to you, but not to me. Geez, to pick at what some say was the best MLB team (yeah, the OAKLAND A’s of the 70s…so what if some people have nostalgic fan-talk about the past) in the history of the game!
History is history whether you like it or not and most of it was accomplished in Oakland. Can you see the future? Do you know for sure that the A’s will be successful anywhere else? Do you even know for sure that the A’s are going anywhere to begin with?
So yeah I brag about our great past when it comes to the game of baseball and what we’ve done. What do you talk about? Or do you just hate on low attendance and a crappy ballpark?? Are you some fair weather fan or something?
This website is a complete waste of space … the A’s do not need a new ballpark. They have a perfectly good site at the coliseum.
Interesting, OA, that you spend so much time detailing the A’s on-field accomplishments, but say not a word about attendance. This blog is not about fan-talk, it’s about stadium issues.
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Here are some relevant facts: In the last 17 years, the A’s have finished last in AL attendance 3 times, next to last 3 times, 12th 4 times, 11th twice, 8th twice, 7th twice, and 6th once.
Their average rank has been 11th in a 14-team league. They never once finished in the upper 40% during that period.
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If the team is so good, why is the attendance so bad? Maybe the fans are not as loyal and enthusiastic as claimed. (Oakland has never led the league in attendance.) Maybe the park location is not as wonderful as claimed, either. In any case, Oakland has had its shot. It trashed the Coliseum as a baseball venue in favor of football. It is unable to propose a desirable ballpark package, and now the team is headed down the freeway. I can’t blame them.
Then go to another one and talk of unicorns, leprechauns and bigfoot on your own time.
You ignore the fundamental changes to baseball economics that have occurred since the 70′s as fi they don’t matter.
The point of this website, is you know, the stadium. What the hell else do you expect people to talk about?
Sorry, by 280/680 I was clumsily referring to the intersection at 101 where 280 _becomes_ 680. This always seemed like the very bottom of the Bay Area, nothing further south or east or west of there of interest, except maybe the Winchester Mystery House…
The point about Fremont is that no great advantage is gained from there by moving to San Jose, though you are upgrading the access for hordes of fans from Scott’s Valley and Gilroy, who will hopefully fill in for the uber distanced A’s fans in Richmond, Berkely, Concord, Walnut Creek, Vallejo, San Rafael, etc.
Actually, you are incorrect. The Bay Area _population_ IS roughly centered at Oakland. Research the numbers yourself at http://www.census.gov.
Nothing will likely occur the remainder of this century to change this.
lol…yeah, maybe for Fred Flintstone
You San Jose boosters need to understand that those 21,000 fans on Facebook are Oakland A’s fans who won’t be going down to San Jose to support the team that slapped them in the face. Do you understand this? Also, if you read the comments on that site you’ll see very few mentions of fans wanting the team to relocate to San Jose. Very very few. Let’s be honest here. Also, I’m sure 100% of the fans who signed the “Let’s Keep the A’s in Oakland” petition actually favor keeping the A’s in Oakland. Enough of your demeaning attitude towards passionate Oakland A’s fans. How many fans on the pro San Jose site?
Also, these people are Oakland A’s fans. Oakland & A’s together. Not “A’s” fans. Not Lew Wolff A’s fans. Not San Jose A’s fans. Oakland isn’t coming after the Sharks. Keep your hands off our team!
any word on the official release of Oakland Docs? I’d like to see how detailed they got. It appears they have a bunch of work to catch up on if they want a chance.
I’ve read all the jibber jabber amongst all the A’s fans on this site 8million times already. I can’t wait till the puffery and posturing ends.
either that or we devise a systematic test to determine REAL FAN STATUS ™ via a sabermetric method.
No offense to Jefferey because I know you mean well with them staying in the Bay,
But the “Keep the A’s in the Bay Area” facebook group has also been holding steady at about 40 or so fans since it was created several weeks ago. People think that facebook numbers don’t mean squat, but in all honesty it’s the largest social media site in the world with over 300 million members. Why has “Baseball San Jose” been stuck at about 900 for so long? Why hasn’t the “Keep the A’s in the Bay Area” group been growing? Because most of the A’s fans in the BAY AREA would like to see them stay in OAKLAND.
It might have something to do with the owners of those two Facebook groups not constantly spamming every single site in creation, including this one.
Any Oakland boosters also need to read the comments by some of their supposed “keep the A’s in Oakland” members. Many of them are proponents of keeping the A’s in the Bay Area (not just Oakland) or moving them to San Jose outright. Trying to ignore that just make it look like ill informed spin.
Oakland went after the Warriors after the Civic wasn’t considered good enough anymore. Oakland went after the A’s after Kansas City wasn’t considered good enough anymore. There’s nothing wrong either of those moves. Why? Because it’s fair game.
The political weight of the Facebook petition is just slightly more than the pieces of paper stacked on my desk. There are no pledges, no $, nothing that requires significant or consistent effort. It’s a feel-good move that neither the MLB panel, nor Selig nor Wolff are going to take into serious account.
So you’re saying that there are as many people north of Oakland as there are south of it? Do your math again.
If all of those Facebook group members went to every single home game, the team would still finish 27th in attendance. The significance of people clicking “Become a Fan” is vastly overstated. Get a grip.
It’s all about money and influence, right Marine Layer? The fans don’t count. What the fans want isn’t important. What’s important is what Wolff, Selig, Fisher, Stone, and Reed want. Baseball is committing suicide with that type of mind-set. It’s never a good thing to alienate your customers. This entire thing has always been about relocating the A’s out of Oakland. It’s now being disguised as a search for a new ballpark. Remember how Lew Wolff lied about working on finding a site in Oakland? I guess at that point in time, Oakland must have been farther away from San Francisco. In recent years the San Andrea’s Fault has moved Oakland “too close to San Francisco.” This is why Wolff and Fisher now have to run away. The fans know they’ve been sucker punched. Whose going to fill this shiny new ballpark in San Jose? It won’t be Oakland A’s fans. Hopefully they can get more people in the place than the San Jose Earthquakes and the San Jose State Spartans get for their home games.
It’s still possible for the A’s to stay in Oakland but it’s going to take a herculean effort from the City of Oakland and it’s citizens to do it.
First they have to change their mind set, it’s not what the A’s can do for the city of Oakland, it’s what the city of Oakland can do FOR the A’s. So far what has Oakland done for the A’s franchise in the past 40 years, maintaining a lower than average attendance throughout their stay in Oakland. And what have the A’s done for Oakland? I dont want to get into this debate because it will be a endless argument.
Here are some ideas that I have to keep the A’s in Oakland
- Donate(give…yes GIVE) the A’s a few plausible sites for a new ballpark
- Help finance 25% of the ballpark construction costs.
I’ll let the rest of you guys take over on ideas…
If the fans were of one mind and unified, then they would count for much more. They aren’t in this case. Many, many area fans aren’t interested in Oakland the city one way or another, but they care about the A’s.
When an expansion candidate city tries to get a team, they don’t just get a petition going. They get pledges for season tickets. Thousands of pledges and deposits. That kind of effort carries weight. I wrote previously that Oakland shouldn’t treat their hold on the A’s like an incumbent, they need to dazzle the powers that be. We’ll see if what’s being released is dazzling or is a mere token effort.
Since it would be impossible for anyone to mess up this math, I can only assume you’ve not actually done any research before joining the conversation. Here is what you would find from US Census estimates for 2008:
Marin: 248k
Sonoma: 466k
Napa: 133k
Solano: 407k
Contra Costa: 1,029k
San Francisco: 808k
The above 6 Bay Area counties at or above the latitude of Oakland, and 100% of the people living there are closer to Oakland than San Jose. Subtotal 3,091k
San Mateo: 712k
Alameda 1,474k
The majority of residents in these two counties are closer to Oakland than San Jose, and have BART access. For this discussion, we’ll just toss them out as being equidistant just to keep it really simple and crystal clear. Subtotal: 2,186k
Santa Clara: 1,764k
And here is where the new A’s fanbase will be primarily drawn from. With very little additional/nearby population in San Benito and Santa Cruz, no BART access to Alameda County (for 9 to 14 years depending on which estimate), and (at bare minimum) a current 50-50 split of Santa Clara and San Mateo counties with the Giants, the demographics just don’t look that great for San Jose. No matter what anyone in this forum claims.
Let’s face it, with this horrible economy no city is going to give the A’s, or Forty Niners for that matter, anything. It will be voted down.
Mark my words. Both the Oakland A’s and the San Francisco 49ers will remain in their respected cities for the foreseeable future. And, I totally support this. I’m not a 49ers fan and I’m a big supporter of Oakland, but I want the 49ers to stay in San Francisco. It’s not right to be shopping these franchises, which become a part of the fabric of their communities, around. The fact that the Forty Niners will keep the moniker “San Francisco” while playing in Santa Clara, has no benefit at all as far as exposure for that city. Also, San Jose has to feel somewhat humiliated by having an NFL franchise called “San Francisco” playing on its border. What both of these ownerships are attempting to do is wrong.
There’s also heavy weight political opposition in both cities against these moves. Both California Senators are against these moves. You factor in a horrible economy, along with voters hesitance to subsidize billionaire pro sports owners, and the fact that the fanbase of at least the Oakland A’s is very much against this, it doesn’t bode well for the relocation of these franchises to the South Bay. Before Wolff and Fisher scuttle the ship in Oakland they better be careful because they may end up needing a lifeline back to solid ground.
Well Nav,
If Santa Clara does not pan out for the 49ers (or Raiders for that matter), and SJ is a doomed effort for the A’s, forcing them to remain in the Coliseum for the foreseeable future, it’s quite likely the 49ers will move to the city of Industry, with the Raiders following suit a couple years later.
BTW,
There is nothing – zero, zilch, nada that the politicians of the various cities and the state can do to prevent a move south to the City of Industry. Completed EIR, the land purchased, and a very ready and willing city government…
End the end, keeping the A’s in the Coli will probably lose the Raiders and the Niners, as that really is the best spot for a stadium for both football teams, and ML has some great posts on refurbishing the rest of the coliseum for football…
Should San Jose be embarrassed the same way Oakland is over the name “Golden State Warriors”? After all, it’s one thing to be a neighbor, another for the W’s to play in the city while not adopting the city. On Thursday they’ll be putting out yet another “Hardwood Classics” San Francisco jersey. Nav, you should protest this vociferously outside the Oracle Arena main entrance. I mean really, the W’s are besmirching Oakland’s honor! Repeatedly! For profit!
You keep mentioning the senators, as if their feeble and largely forgotten initial statements will translate into some kind of arm-twisting. Do you honestly think these ownership groups will take those statements seriously?
I have done absolutely no “marketing” of the Keep the A’s in the Bay Area site. Spam or otherwise, no offense is taken. I don’t intend to do any marketing. The people who have joined found it from others who joined. Completely viral and I honestly don’t care if it gets any bigger.
The claim of 21,000 supporters who want to keep the A’s in Oakland (exclusively) is patently false, for one… many of the people on this very site are members of Let’s Go Oakland… Including me :) Not to mention that people on that site have commented on support for other cities. I support the A’s staying in Oakland as long as it is good for both the A’s and Oakland. I subscribe to the idea that Oakland rocks with or without a baseball team.
I wonder how come the OAFC has been around for about a decade and never gotten any real traction? Perhaps because the A’s have a regional fanbase that doesn’t identify with Oakland as much as the Bay Area in general? I am speculating of course, but so are you when you make ridiculous claims based on a facebook group. Hey, I was once one of a trillion people for the destruction of the Death Star on facebook!
So let me ask you guys this…do you really believe that the people who created the facebook group spamed that many people/sites all over the Bay Area to get over 21K members to join?? I seriously doubt that. It’s called spreading the word and a little bit of passion. Even though you say you’ve done absolutely no “marketing” (which we all know is BS because you do in fact push your group on the Oakland page…I’ve read your comments on there and I’m not even a FB memeber myself for that matter.) for your facebook group, obviously people aren’t paying much attention to them since it’s barely gaining any kind of recognition for days at a time and that pretty much goes the same for the San Jose group as well…it has pretty much plateaued. You can say all you want about the different people who have joined the Oakland group wanting them to just stay in the Bay Area for that matter, but the bottom line is they joined that group knowing the purpose is to KEEP THE A’s IN OAKLAND. Even if it’s true, I’ll bet it’s a small percentage of the 21K members who feel the same way you all do.
If I recall, you started that group Jefferey after the Oakland group was formed out of curiosity to see how many people would actually be on board and join your cause, didn’t you?
Yeah “some” meaning very few out of the hundreds of other comments people are leaving each and every day. Like I said above….a small percentage. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the same small group of people on the San Jose or Bay Area group commenting. If they wanted to keep the A’s in the Bay Area, then why haven’t they been joining your group with the same passion that’s been keep the Oakland group going strong and counting?
Don’t even put the Oakland Raiders into the conversation. They would never move to San Jose. Oakland A’s has a lot of history with the Coliseum, and just because the attendance records are at all time lows year to year, you expect to solve that by having the team relocate in San Jose with a better stadium? Sure, San Jose has about 1 million residents, but how surely can you guarantee that a lot of them will attend the games? I understand having to move to San Jose for the team’s financial benefits, because the new stadium has a lot of corporate suites, but will that be enough to bring back the A’s fans?
Thanks for the kind words!
So, I just don’t care about a pissing match between Oakland and SJ. Anyone here can slam Oakland all they like, but I’m still going to work towards, and support, the A’s staying in Oakland. Maybe I’m naive (probably), but that’s just the way it is.
That area is part of the Measure DD makeover. There’s no way you’re getting dedicated open space turned into ballpark land. CALM, OHA, and all the other community activist groups would flip their lid.
Would Carlos Plazola and friends be willing to surrender the Tidewater to Lew for building a ballpark, V?
I think everything south of Howard St. in the Tidewater is more acreage than my Jingletown Stadium idea. On the other hand, the access to Fruitvale BART wouldn’t be as good as the Owens Brockway site.
What comment did I say that pushed the Keep the A’s in the Bay Area facebook page? When have I ever linked the group for people to join? You taqlk out fo your ass entirely too much.
Actually the A’s are no where near their all time lows of the late 70′s. And aren’t even as low right now as their attendances of the mid-90′s. Actually if I’m not mistaken right now the A’s with 1.4 million are still well above their historic average in Oakland.
I fear you’re right. If SJ and SC don’t work out for their respective teams I fear both Oakland and SF will stop work because they’ll feel the “threat” has passed. In which case Industry will benefit from one or both Bay Area football team, and Oakland will eventually lose the A’s anyway. Until I see actual movement on one of these sites Oakland is just using smoke and mirrors to try and make it look like they’re doing something.
FWIW, I just looked at this ‘Let’s Go Oakland’ facebook page, and the comments I saw there are quite overwhelmingly and unambiguously “Keep the A’s in Oakland.” There does not seem to be any real confusion over what the people there are signing up for.
Nav,
Your post from 4:20 this afternoon tells it all. You’re a fan of Oakland, and a fan of the A’s. Nothing wrong with that. But it’s unfortuante that you’re allowing your love for your city to cloud your view of what’s best for the A’s.
Replying to myself since I apparently cannot reply to you…
San Francisco is not north of Oakland. Much of Contra Costa is not, either. Most of Alameda is certainly not. That part of the Bay Area is certainly dense but the pull from Santa Clara Valley is much stronger than the sparsely populated north. The weighted population center of the Bay Area would most definitely be a south of Oakland, not in it. With that area already dominated by the Giants and their new park, it leaves little for the A’s outside of their dedicated fanbase.
Jesus, how fucking clueless are you? If not for Facebook proving you’re old, I’d think you were barely a teenager with bullshit like this. The A’s and 49ers situations are hardly alike. One is attached to an urban core, privately funded, hosting 81 games and not hinging on a vote. The other is not.
We’ll just wait and see what Lew Wolff has to say about whatever he has tomorrow on the Chronicle Live. I hope he does address this fiasco or at the very least, have some information for us about this situation. The longer it takes, the less likely it will happen if he truly wants a new stadium,
Thanks for giving my post a little more facetime, ML. I really appreciate it. I kinda wish I had written it earlier and went more in depth. If I had really gotten some consensus and consideration of it as a legitimate site earlier in the central estuary specific plan process, we might have been looking at an EIR for an Oakland stadium site coming down the pipe in 8 months or so (when the EIR for the CESP is scheduled to drop, if I remember correctly).
and might add, to all the haters in my first post who mocked me and said that it was impossible to even consider such a site for a stadium: nya-nya nya-nya nyanya, ha-ha ha-ha haha.
My group? Sorry but what group is that?