Yes Virginia, Transportation is a Challenge
- 02.19.10, 09:38
- 136 Comments
Last November, upon hearing much whining from my fellow East Bay residents, I did a little sleuthing on transportation options to get to a potential new stadium in San Jose. I found out that most of the whining was fairly justified. Getting to an imagined park in San Jose would not be as convenient as getting to the current home of the A’s for large portions of the fan base.
Recently, there has been a lot of discussion about the SEIR in San Jose and its transportation assumptions. I figure it is time to update the transportation discussion.
First, let’s revisit the original findings:
- The East Bay is a big area, so…
- It is probably better to break it down by Inner East Bay and Tri Valley/Diablo Valley
- Inner East Bay (as measured from Berkeley) faces a 1 hr 30 min drive
- Tri Valley (as measured from Pleasanton) faces a 30-45 minute drive
- No actual train service exists on a schedule to serve these folks, realistically
- Transportation plans (BART/HSR) for the region will not make an impact on East Bay travel times before 2020 (and that is an optimistic estimate)
So now that reality has smacked us in the face and yelled “You have to drive!!!!” What are the solutions a team might kick around to get the East Bay folks some transportation? Fear not, fellow citizens of Eastbaylovakia… I have some ideas.
While I won’t throw out specific plans, here are the methods I think are key to solving the transportation challenges.
Subsidized Bus Lines
I am an East Bay resident. I work in Sunnyvale. Many of my coworkers also live in the East Bay. Our company has an interesting solution to the transportation challenges we face: a free shuttle service. In my case, due to strange work hours on occasion, the bus line is not always helpful. But, on the days I can leave my house by 0620 and leave the office at 1600, there is no better way to get to and from the South Bay than the Bauer’s powered shuttle service.
The service picks me up at the Tassajara Park n’ Ride in Dublin. Drops me off at the office and does the reverse in the afternoon. There is another stop, further north on 680 for Diablo Valley residents. A similar service used to operate up and down 880 for Oakland/Berkeley residents.
Imagine the Green and Gold Express running up and down 680 and 880. The shuttle could be to and from Fremont BART or they could go the route my company does and hit a few park and rides on the major highways. Either way, it is a solution I expect to be pursued on some level.
Extended Train Schedules
So, there is this Capitol Corridor thing. And this ACE thing. They are comfortable. Come with Wifi. Possibly a bar cart. Not to mention the potential for some baseball history themed train rides from Sacramento, or Stockton on down. The two lines serve a considerable portion of the A’s current territory. Capitol Corridor has from Auburn to Fairfield to Martinez to Oakland to Fremont, etc. ACE covers Stockton, Tracy, Livermore, Pleasanton and Fremont.
Here are the two routes with all the stations noted:
Routes courtesy of capitolcorridor.org and acerail.com
Only problem? The schedules they keep don’t exactly mesh so well with night games. The last ACE train rumbles toward San Jose at around the time any random rooster might crow. It last departs from San Jose, heading out on a northeasterly tact, sometime around when batting practice starts. The Capitol Corridor doesn’t do much better. The simple solution is to introduce a new time slot for each route on night games (similar to what Caltrain does for Sharks games). I’d love to come in on a train from Pleasanton, on a “Turn Back the Clock Day,” with a bunch of other A’s fans, all of dressed in period garb. I can hear the ticket taker barking, “1929 priced beer in the bar cart boys and girls!”
Maybe this is pure fantasy, but it is fun to think about.
Another potential challenge here is the cost/time. A round trip ticket from Berkeley to San Jose on Capitol Corridor is $16 and requires a 1hr and 30 minute train ride. A round trip ticket from the Tri Valley is $12.25 and requires a 1hr train ride from the the Pleasanton station. Obviously, the further away you go, the higher the cost/time commitment.
Based on these numbers, it is probably safe to say that the train schedules would probably need more frequent weekend service. That will be when most folks from extended distances would come to town for a game and , probably, when most fans in the East Bay would come. I know I could get a lot more excited about a 2 hr round trip train ride on a Saturday then I would on a Wednesday.
Express Light Rail Trains
I have absolutely no idea if this is even possible. I love VTA Light Rail, for the simple fact that I think of King Friday every time I pass a “Trolley Crossing” sign. Also, because I have a free pass and anytime I need to get to Downtown San Jose I just jump on the next train and there I am.
Maybe the train only stops at sites with a parking lot and then at the Convention Center, the station at San Fernando and Delmas and at Diridon. I am not sure if you could have a few express trains running on all routes. I imagine it would cause some congestion in the system.
This would be my preferred method on week nights. I could drive into work, catch an express train out at Moffett Park and be at the game well before the first pitch. The downside being I’d have to catch a train back out to Moffett Park before driving home, but that is doable every once in a while.
All of this conjecture points to the one non MLB controlled challenge at Diridon: Transportation for East Bay fans. Should San Jose get the nod and the park is built, success will depend (in part) on how well the available transportation options are utilized. Perhaps the A’s will bring together VTA, ACE, Capitol Corridor, and Bauer’s and together this group will agree to some unified strategy of people moving. Stranger things have happened, right?
The administrator is listed as the San Jose Giants.
The administrator’s phone is listed as 1-570-708-8780.
Calling that number triggers a recorded announcement from Network Solutions.
It would appear that something is amiss here — either the administrator is Network Solutions, or the administrator’s phone number is not as listed.
It’s cute that Oaklanders think the entire east bay has an allegiance to their city, and isn’t afraid to travel there at all….
Its cute how san jose people think the entire BAY AREA has an allegiance to their city and isnt afraid to travel their
a fanbase is definitely not someone who attends one game a year … many people love to watch on tv, or are not able to attend games… your thinking is very narrow minded.
Phone number goes to PA too.
So using your logic a ballpark should be built close to those who are “fans” but who don’t attend games—that is interesting—why not build it where there are “fans” who will actually pay to attend games while still allowing other “fans” who prefer to watch it on tv to do so—its called keeping them in the Bay Area–and San Jose is the preferred location of the people who are willing to shell out the $500M to do so—
Come on now did i say that u shoud build a park where people wont pay to see them, does that appear anywhere in my comment? … im jus pointing out the fact that oakland and the east bay have far more than 600,000 fans .
Wait, this firehose of repetitive disinformation seems awfully familiar. Could it be…? Why yes, the Navigator has found another computer to post from.
Fremont should get a Major League Baseball Stadium and Oakland should get a Minor League Baseball Stadium. San Jose should not get an A’s Stadium at all. San Jose already have a Giants (minor league baseball) Stadium. They don’t even need a another baseball stadium. We need to keep the A’s in the East Bay not San Jose
Facebook.com/astofremont (1,000 Fans)
First of all, Navigator, the “post-1988″ thing is total, self-serving crap. I get why you’re doing it: Attendance has sucked relative to performance 35 out of 40 years, so you’re trying to figure out ways to take those four or five outlier years and make them look like the norm.
Second, your statistics are flat out wrong. Even just looking at your chosen window, A’s attendance was below 2 million 11 out of 21 years. (That is, most of the time).
(And of course, this totally ignores the 11 out of 13 years in the 60s and 70s when attendance was below 1 million despite repeated World Championship teams).
Third, your statement that “The actual numbers look better for the Oakland fanbase than I thought because the AL average indicates that Oakland easily draws at or near the league average” is a flat out lie. Even using your self-serving window of time, since 1988 A’s attendance has been between 500,000 and 1 million below league average 11 times. It only exceeded league average six times during this period – mostly during the five deficit spending “outlier” years you keep throwing out there as though they represented anything.
Pre-1988, of course, the numbers look even more dismal.
I do encourage all readers to go take a look at the actual numbers, rather than taking either my or Navigator’s word for it.
ML: No, same troll.
The point that CM made was paying fans—in fact he used the word ticket buyer—so not sure the point you are making—sure not all fans pay to see a game—but the whole point of a new ballpark is to locate it in an area where “paying fans” will support it—and once again–if the owners are willing to risk paying $500M of their own money they should have a pretty strong say in where it is located—
Not only was that a weak retort, but it isn’t even correct. Who has argued that?
P.S. “there”
There’s no center of the South Bay? Look at a VTA map and see where most lines converge.
Every town has a navigator…
Nav said……”Also, while there may be a lot of people who live and work in the SV area they are not of the demographics known to support MLB.” Could you let the gints know that so that they can give up their claim to Santa Clara County since we don’t fit the demographic known to support MLB–that is one of the most classic lines I have ever heard–
I make a lot more sense than navigator.
The “post-1988″ bit is important because the population of the region has increased massively since then. The 1980′s were when the East Bay suburbs such as Concord, Walnut Creek, Pleasanton, Dublin, etc, really took off.
Next, I clearly posted that I mixed up two columns. My key point was regarding average attendance and comparisons to the AL average (which were the numbers on that chart). The entire AL averaged less than 2 millions fans per season in 94/95, strike seasons yes, but useful to know that 2 million attendance isn’t bad, it’s average.
Most teams in the AL got new stadiums in those years, nearly all of them in fact. They all saw increases in attendance that were clearly related to those new facilities (and the corresponding reinvigoration of marketing, etc). Should the A’s receive a new facility they will have no problem drawing large numbers of fans.
Most posts here on this topic are regarding the fan base. I simply want to counteract the lie that the A’s existing fan base has not adequately supported the team. The ownership situation has almost always been challenging in Oakland. This is the case today. Every other team in MLB with lousy ownership goes through difficulties. When ownership improves, so does attendance, fan enthusiasm and all the rest.
Argue in favor of SJ all you want but please stop lying about what exists today in Oakland.
San Jose does not own the A’s. East Bay do. San Francisco and Giants own San Jose. A’s does not belong in San Jose at all and Oakland has a poor city leadership. What are the only option? Fremont or residents pay for the the terriority rights to allow A’s move to San Jose. Is your choice.
Bartleby has been arguing that up and down this thread.
CalTrain doesn’t serve SF very well and neither does Caltrain’s miserable Millbrae connection. A one-way ride form downtown SF BART to SJ utilizing the Caltrain option costs something like $15 per person and takes 90 minutes or longer, requires a modal transportation change and still requires you to be on the east side of SF.
Many A’s fans don’t want to buy tickets because the money supports Wolf and his efforts to move the team. He’s also reduced the stadium’s seating. The third deck was very popular (it was fun!).
I know some of you think this is dumb or not true but you’re wrong. Many of us A’s fans are very reluctant to shell out to support this insulting ownership group. If they are going to leave town they’re going to do it with or without or money. We’d rather they do it without.
I’ve read this blog since its inception and it has always had a pro-relocation bent regarding a new A’s ballpark but at least in the past Marine Layer made a decent effort to consider Oakland.
In the past year or so this has changed completely. This is entirely, 100% an anti-Oakland A’s fan site and it is dedicated to moving the team to a different area and away from the bulk of longtime fans of the A’s. Nevermind that any attempts to defend the East Bay market are met with comments of “troll” by smug, self-serving internet heroes who don’t care about the numbers and just want to see the team closer to their house.
I would like to request that you change the name/banner of this site to reflect this bias. I think the worst thing about it is that you are representing the “A’s fans” on the internet when really you are representing relocation. It would be a bit like Oklahoma City people running a Sonics website a few years ago, dedicated to dissing the city of Seattle’s unwillingness to rebuild Key Arena yet again.
There’s nothing wrong with being boosters for your community and trying to improve it but please stop pretending to represent the entire A’s fan base just because most Oakland fans don’t spend their lives on the internet running blogs defending their fellow fans. Why should we have to? We know we have a lot of fans because we know each other. We see each other all around the Bay Area and the state and elsewhere.
The A’s are a popular team. They are popular with the kind of people that don’t really like the Giants, or the atmosphere at their ballpark. That isn’t to say that we don’t go to Giants games or smile when they win but we don’t feel affinity for them the way we feel for our HOMETOWN A’s. This will never change. If you take the A’s out of Oakland, out of greed, you will discard all of these fans. Many more than you think. I know some of you consider us “lesser” fans or “less valuable” because you think we don’t have the “corporate money” or whatever but that only makes YOU look bad.
We’ve supported our team despite a hostile media, a hostile competing franchise, a hostile Commissioner and hostile ownership. When the team had good media, a cooperating local competitor, a non-hostile Commissioner and supportive ownership the team excelled in fan attendance and on-the-field performance.
So please, stop pretending that “www.newballpark.org” is some kind of neutral site. It has clearly become an advocate of relocating the A’s to San Jose. Slap some honesty on your front page to illustrate this. I bet you’re all Giants fans anyway.
Ahh—so help me out—define “many of us A’s fans”….is that like 10, 100, 1.5M maybe….pick any number you want to try and justify your statements but we all know that attendance has always sucked for the A’s—no matter who the owner is—you also go on to say another reason you don’t buy tickets is becasue he “reduced the stadium seating”….you don’t mention that the ballpark on average is less than 50% full even with reduced seating but lets assume for a minute that a new 36,000 seat ballpark is built in Oakland—-seating is still reduced so I guess you won’t go to a new ballpark in Oakland either—so why should Wolff or anyone else for that matter give a shit about what you want?
Every city in the world belongs to the Giants as much as San Jose does.
“I make a lot more sense than navigator.”
That’s debatable (and in any event is setting the bar pretty low). But sorry, I still think you’re Nav. Only Nav would misread the data, take a second look and see that A’s attendance has been below league average almost every single year and DRAMATICALLY below league average about half of the time, and come back with a declaration like “The actual numbers look better for the Oakland fanbase than I thought!”
“The “post-1988″ bit is important because the population of the region has increased massively since then.”
Sorry, the post-1988 bit isn’t important for any reason other than your desire to discount a large amount of data which runs counter to your argument. I’m sure population has increased in most MLB markets since 1968. We can easily adjust for population growth by simply comparing to the league average.
“Next, I clearly posted that I mixed up two columns. My key point was regarding average attendance and comparisons to the AL average (which were the numbers on that chart). The entire AL averaged less than 2 millions fans per season in 94/95, strike seasons yes, but useful to know that 2 million attendance isn’t bad, it’s average.”
First of all, 2 million is not average. Since 1988, the AL average has generally, been in the 2.2 to 2.3 million range, and more recently 2.4 or 2.5 million.
Second of all, realizing your error, why would you come back with a lame “attendance has been better than I thought!” rather than acknowledging that since 1996, the A’s have only reached 2 million in attendance five times, and then only barely? And that based on average per game attendance, they wouldn’t have broken two million in 94 or 95, either? And how DRAMATICALLY short they were in many of the years when they fell short (like 500K to 1 million short)? And how, adjusting for team performance, the picture looks even worse?
“When ownership improves, so does attendance, fan enthusiasm and all the rest.”
I have yet to see any evidence “owner-love” has any meaningful affect on attendance. In fact, the evidence runs to the contrary. When team performance fell, fans abandoned Walter Haas far faster than they have abandoned Lew Wolff. On the other hand, attendance increased every year carpetbagger Steve Schott owned the team.
So you call us Giants fans (a serious insult omg) but say that you go to Giants games and revel in their success? Get on the same page…with yourself.
“Bartleby has been arguing that up and down this thread.”
Show me one place where I’ve argued that the “entire Bay Area has an allegiance to [San Jose] and isn’t afraid to travel there”?
What I’ve actually argued is:
- the A’s have had historically bad attendance in Oakland
- the East Bay has little corporate base, which is essential to make a privately-financed ballpark pencil out
Someone with this much of a cognitive disability can only be Navigator.
“I bet you’re all Giants fans anyway.”
And you’d lose that bet. I shouldn’t have to explain myself to the bitter and prejudiced likes of you, anon, but I will do it anyway. This blog follows the news and operates on news cycles. Most of the news the past 2-3 years has been made in Fremont and San Jose, not Oakland. The only news in Oakland has come as a result of the MLB panel and the “Let’s Go Oakland” group. That’s it. If there were feasibility studies, multipage proposals, anything beyond a few overlays of PNC Park on a JLS site – you can bet that we’d be digging into it heartily. I was planning to do walking tours of the sites. However, I can’t do that until I see something more substantive. Don’t blame the blog or its writers for following the news. If the keep-em-in-Oakland wants to see it happen, they need to make it happen.
Just to be clear, anon here is not navigator as navigator tried to post from his usual perch this morning but since his ban is still up his comment was automatically blocked, whereas anon’s comments keep coming in. At least anon is actually posting from Oakland. That’s a step up.
What kind of New Ballpark website is this? A Pro San Jose A’s and Anti-Oakland A’s without mention about Fremont all. This website should talk about the future of the A’s Stadium in Oakland, San Jose, and Fremont.
Welcome to Pro San Jose A’s or Anti-Oakland A’s website!!!! I’m a favor of changing this website to Pro San Jose A’s with orange and black color background.
San Jose! San Jose! San Jose! Come on people and stop talking about just San Jose. What happened if Major League doesn’t choose San Jose. I’m hoping you are just talking nonsense and wasting your time talking about San Jose traffic, wants the city to pay for more transportation, and Blah! Blah! Blah! I’m won’t if you talk about San Jose, but you keep talking about San Jose without talkin about Fremont and Anti-Oakland.
Well Bartleby, In all fairness the A’s staying does have the backing of Kaiser and Colorox. ;)
Hey buddy, did you attend the Fremont Study Session last month? I know I did and I wrote about it. The mayor said there wouldn’t be any further action until MLB made its decision. Should I make up news? Would you like that?
I like how the only people following the stand for SJ twitter feed are also subscribed to the Giants’ tweets.
I dont think two companies are enough to do it though. And those two companies do not seem to have done much advertising at the coliseum as far as I can remember.
I would say the comments on this blog pretty much mirror those of most hard-core A’s fans. Case in point.
Might I recommend a Nav-like fate for FremontA’s? He/she is starting to make me resent my city of residence.
Not to mention that 1 of those companies has the bulk of their business under non-profit status—which is great–but not the most likely to be investing substantially in advertising etc—
So this is about corporate allegiance now? I’m guessing East Bay Fans are left to oblivion. South Bay fans, and quite possibly Peninsula fans can have a party now that it is clear the A’s will be coming to San Jose. Give yourselves a pat on the back.
Anonymous…..your post was well said. Thank you!!
LMAO, wow
Ah busted, sucker!
“I’m guessing East Bay Fans are left to oblivion.” You mean SOME are left to oblivion. Jeffrey can probably back me up on this one: there are many East Bay A’s fans, from Tri-Valley to Union City southward, who will catch games in San Jose. Yes, some will have to drive (like we in the South Bay have been doing for years), but as Jeffrey’s thread alluded to, there could be other options.
“People who live in that area adapt to the hour-long commutes and their lives are structured around it so it may not seem as important to them as it does for someone who lives in SF or Oakland and considers 30 minutes a long time.”
According to the California Department of Labor, average commute time in Santa Clara County in 2005 (latest data available) was 23.6 minutes. By contrast, average commute time in Alameda County was 27.2 minutes. In Contra Costa, it was 32.2 minutes. In San Francisco, 28.7 minutes.
In other words: Commute times in Santa Clara County are significantly LESS than in any of those other three places. This is logical when you consider that SC is the job center for the region. People pay a premium to live here in order to be close to their jobs. People live in the East Bay because housing is affordable, but then have to commute to either SF or the South Bay.
At least you are consistent in your complete and total disregard for facts, Nav.
ML: I’m still not convinced “anon” is not Navigator. He may be posting from a different location, but there are any number of reasons, personal and professional, why he might regularly spend time in different places. Plus, his tendency to interpret data which hurts his argument as being somehow favorable is a uniquely-Navigator trait. It’s possible it could be some other member of the Oakland-only Taliban, but I’m betting the other way.
In any event, the content is the same so it doesn’t really matter.
This is patently ridiculous. Santa Clara County is larger than Alameda. I know you’ll try to take credit for Contra Costa as well, but the A’s will draw from neighboring counties no matter where they are.
Bottom line: San Jose and Oakland have similar numbers of people within thirty minutes to an hour’s travel time, the meaningful radius for getting to a game. However, San Jose has WAY more big corporations and less competition from other nearby MLB teams.
If your ludicrous claim of being closer to “millions more people” is based on slightly better proximity to far away locations which won’t send many people to games anyway, I’m still claiming the crown based on San Jose’s closer proximity to Los Angeles.
“During the Haas era (the only legitimate ownership group in terms of local commitment) the team was well-supported”
Nonsense. During a handful of years when Haas deficit-spent like crazy, fielded an All-Star Team, and repeatedly made the World Series, attendance was respectable (though not overwhelming under the circumstances). However, Haas lost $30 million doing this (and those were early 1990s dollars, not 2010 dollars), so it was not sustainable. As soon as he stopped, attendance plummeted. Attendance during the other years of his tenure was just as bad as for Finley, Schott, or Wolff.
“During the early 2000’s the team still drew well despite [blan, blah, blah]”
More BS. In 2000, attendance was 500,000 below league average. In 2001, it was 200,000 below league average. In 2002 and 2003, it was almost exactly league average, but those were both years in which the team was coming off 100 win seasons and repeated playoff appearances and was expected to legitimately contend for a pennant. If “league average” is the ceiling under those circumstances, face it, it’s not a baseball town.
“Your next suggestion, that we should pursue a “corporate base which can support premium seating” is a bit like the people on TV protesting against free health care. Why would you want to increase the price of watching games?”
I don’t want to increase the price of attending games. I do want the team to increase revenue, which is necessary to pay for a new ballpark and allow the team to retain valued players. The only way the team is going to increase revenue is with Government support (a non-starter in Northern California) or higher ticket prices. So I accept the need for higher ticket prices as a necessary evil.
I would emphasize, we’re talking AVERAGE ticket prices. The average will go way up because the team will be selling a lot more suites and club seats at much higher prices, but seats at the low end will go up much less. In practice, the corporate fat cats will be subsidizing the game day experience for the rest of us.
I’m not saying this will have no impact on average fans. To get the cheapest seats, you will likely have to buy the day they go on sale, and possibly settle for seeing the Royals instead of the Yankees. This is basically how it is in Boston. The day of the walk-up Plaza Infield seat behind home plate will be over.
But considering the alternatives, I think this is the best outcome that can be hoped for.
“Anyway, if SJ/SV is so close that they are in “the same market” then why can’t the A’s pursue a new stadium in Oakland and also corporate money from the South Bay region?”
They are in the same television market. They are in the same market for purposes of casual fans who want to take in a game with the family on the weekend (since without traffic, the drive from South Bay to Oakland or vice versa is not too bad). However, they are not really in the same market for the purpose of pursuing corporate support for premium seat sales, which is what is needed to pay for a privately financed ballpark.
The reason for this should be obvious. Premium seats are typically sold on a full-season basis, primarily to large corporations. Those corporations use them to entertain clients, reward employees, and as a perk for executives.
However, it’s only worth it to buy them if you can use most of them. Most MLB games are held on weeknights. To get to an Oakland ballpark on a weeknight from, say, Palo Alto, you must plan on sitting in hideous traffic and allow 2 hours to get to the ballpark. Time is money for these guys. No Silicon Valley exec is going to regularly drag important clients up to Oakland on a weeknight, no matter how good the marketing is. They might take clients to AT&T Park, which is only an hour, but even that’s iffy.
Now a ballpark in downtown SJ, which can be reached in 20-30 minutes: Jackpot.
“So this is about corporate allegiance now?”
It has nothing to do with “corporate allegiance,” whatever that means. But the reality is big corporations will be paying to build the ballpark which all of us will enjoy. They’re not going to do it if it’s not in a location convenient for them. It’s just not going to happen.
No matter which side the A’s will be heading, the other side will have problems getting to the game. Whichever way you look at it. In order for any side to make it easier on transportation, infrastructure would have to be built in place to serve the fans, casuals, and non-game days too. You can’t build something that only operates during baseball days. If it’s a shuttle your asking, then you would need dozens of shuttles to move fans to the ballpark, and back. Only the planners, committee, and MLB know how to access this. We can only guess, but not as proven facts.
wow. a post about trains turned into this</i?
html dyslexia
Don’t forget about the VTA express bus lines. For East Bay fans, taking the VTA 180/181 from Fremont BART to Dirdion I think would be the best best. The 181 line is somewhat new and doesn’t stop in Milpitas anymore but goes straight to Dirdion (weekdays only). I live in Milpitas and have often taken the 180 both to downtown SJ and Fremont BART and it’s pretty quick. It’ll be even faster once the Warm Springs BART station opens.
http://www.vta.org/schedules/SC_181.html