It’s a bargain, I swear
- 12.14.11, 16:37
- 87 Comments
You know what I like the most about Friday’s Oakland press conference? They snuck in a very, very important detail and no one noticed.
Sometime after we heard that the Victory Court EIR hadn’t begun (which was verified, yes) a bit of info started floating around the interwebs about Oakland offering and presenting to MLB a “$250 million package” for the Victory Court site. There was no sense as to the substance of that package. Some questions I had about it:
- Would it be all of the land up to Oak Street?
- Would it include all infrastructure (on/off-ramps, parking, pedestrian improvements)?
- Would it provide some money for construction?
- Would it require redevelopment-based or tax increment financing?
The answers to those from what I gather:
- Yes
- Yes
- No
- Yes
When Victory Court was initially presented last December, Oakland officials steered far away from any kind of guess as to the cost of preparing the site, especially land acquisitions. I made a WAG of $100 million just for the land and some indeterminate amount of infrastructure. Now we know that the price just to get Victory Court ready for the A’s by November 2014 is $250,000,000. I don’t know about you, but to me that’s an absolutely staggering amount for 14 acres and infrastructure. A ballpark site should never cost that much. Even if redevelopment were to continue as-is into the distant future, it’s difficult to conceive of any amount of new, growth-based economic activity happening around Victory Court that could come close to paying off the cost of acquiring the site. Keep that price tag in mind when considering the following list of stadium site costs (note – does not break down public vs. private shares and does not include stadium construction cost):
- Diridon: $50-70 million, plus $25-30 million in infrastructure
- China Basin: Final cost $87 million, including land and infrastructure
- Atlantic Yards (Brooklyn Nets): $100 million
- New Yankee Stadium: $300 million including garages (considered grossly inflated)
- Miami/Orange Bowl: $60 million including garages
- Target Field: $90 million including infrastructure
Sense a pattern? Around $100 million is the prevailing rate. Yet Victory Court is 2.5 times that amount, approaching the astronomical figure for the eternal ripoff that is New Yankee Stadium. Why didn’t anyone pay attention to the cost of Victory Court? Simple. Oakland presented another site with an even more outlandish vision, Coliseum City. Of course, the price will also be more outlandish, but no one’s talking about that. And with that presentation, they gave a handful of people that whiff of hope a dog-and-pony shows brings, even though there’s very little substance to it.
@ Rayburn’s Son – “I can’t think of 1 course in the East Bay that is ranked in the Top #100 Courses in the World (maybe I missed that one).” Sarcasm noted. Let me see if I can explain my point more clearly. It appears to me that you are saying that a new yard at Diridon would be closer to Pebble, therefore, this is one more justification for a move. I am merely countering that this should have zero bearing on a decision to move. Here’s why. I don’t know if you’re a golfer yourself but, if you’ve ever played at an extremely difficult course, you’d know how frustrating a round of golf can really be. I’m going to go out on a limb and speculate that very few MLB players are scratch. I’ll even add that most are weekend hackers. Hence, a trip to Pebble for them would be better off as a weekend vacation rather than an outing because they might quit after 5 holes if they haven’t lost all of their balls first. To your point that there are no “east bay” courses in the top 100 in the “world,” I agree. I’ll also add that there are only 7 courses in our beautiful state in that top 100, 2 of which are in the city of SF. That doesn’t take away the fact that there are 15 public (not private) courses in the east bay that are ranked in the top 100 in Northern Ca. The next largest collection of courses is 13 on the Monterey Peninsula, including Pebble. The slope ratings (for hackers) on average is 132.4 and 134.1 respectively. The course ratings (for scratchers) on average is 73.6 and 74.8 respectively. Since the average difficulty of a golf course lies somewhere in the slope range of 112-115, I would say that these differences are miniscule, even insignificant for weekend hackers. People hop on planes from all over the world to play Pebble so I personally don’t think having a stadium in SJ being 40 minutes closer to Pebble is a very good argument, especially for pro sports players. As a comparison, I could say that having a stadium in Oakland is closer to French Laundry, a top 100 restaurant in the world (was at #32 a couple of years ago). Although I would never use this as an argument for a stadium in Oakland, I must admit that IMHO it would apply more to pro sports figures who often like to dine out at fine restaurants. I am of the opinion that both of these arguments are absurd and are in no way applicable as an argument to building a stadium in either location.
Favorite East Bay course? Wente. To look at.
.
To play? Chabot.
.
15th hole has a money view.
@ Jeffrey – I will admit that I played Wente 3 times for free, thanks to wholesalers who took us out. I liked it but I played when the weather was 100 degrees and it kind of sucked because of that. I was lucky enough to play Stonebrae in the Hayward hills one time thanks to a doctor friend who is a member. That is a great course with unbelievable views. I have been playing Chabot since I was 11 years old ( a long time ago). My favorite hole is the 18th by far. Where else is there a nearly 700 yard, dog-leg left, par 6? I had the privilege of playing with a former renowned coach for Bishop O’Dowd H.S. (my alma mater) many years ago and witnessed him eagle that hole. He hit a perfect drive that kicked left and rolled partly down the first hill. He hit a 3-wood from there and it ended up just above the lower gully. He chipped his 3rd shot to within 10 feet and holed out. Unbelievable! That has always been my favorite course but I now live in San Mateo County and I have found a great course in Crystal Springs, a mere 10 minutes from my house.
I play softball with the head groundskeeper at Wente. He plays a solid 3rd base, but his swing has a nasty uppercut.
@ gojohn10 – That is to be expected from a golfer… I think. I can recall playing golf one morning when I was about 13 with my older brothers. I think we played at Willow Park in CV, one of the narrowest courses I’ve ever played. It was a Saturday and I had an afternoon baseball game for my Babe Ruth team that I played on. Not that it makes a difference but I was one of the better hitters on the team and I struck out twice and popped out to short in that game; quite uncharacteristic. My swing felt “off.” Ever since that game I never played golf within a few days of a baseball game. Superstition or is there a correlation? I’ll never know for sure.
@ gojohn10 – If his name is Carl Spackler he probably says, “He’s on his final hole. He’s about 455 yards away. He’s gonna hit about a 2-iron I think. It’s in the hole!”
@Columbo: The good Lord would never ruin the best round of MY LIFE!!!!
I think the A’s should move to San Jose so they’d be closer to Disneyland.
If they stay in Oakland theyre closer to Tahoe
@Columbo
I appreciate that you may be a self-proclaimed golf course maven, however you entirely missed my original point. The point is that having a golf couse, such as Pebble – Spyglass – Cypress Point, within a 1.5 hour drive from the place you play 81 games a year, is another selling point A’s management can make to potential free agents……I never implicitly meant that it was a reason for the A’s to move to SJ….those reasons were already decided….Moreover, look where the NHL had their most recent meetings…..Pebble…
@MLB, has anything leaked about Selig meeting with the Giants? Wasn’t that supposed to happen a couple of weeks back?
Article in the Mercury News today about the “Stand for San Jose” scam. Sam Liccardo’s quote says it all – Frisco lawyers backed by Frisco millionaires forming a group called “Stand for San Jose.” The Giants are using our court system for this garbage. Go ahead and keep supporting them, people. Let’s go Giants!
Excellent article by Seipel today. The “Stand for San Francisco” lawsuit is the pure definition of frivolous; completely 100% baseless! Nice read.
@pjk, thanks for the heads up on the article. It was a good one.
http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_19571910
Nice to hear that the lady whose name the original lawsuit was filed under had no idea it was going to be filed in her name. What a joke.
Occupy The Marlins”
More reason to be happy with the way the A’s and San Jose are trying to get their new stadium.
F*&*^%$ Raiders secondary sucks! Leading by 14 with 4 minutes to go and they give up the long ball. How can you let a receiver get 200+ yds receiving? Back to .500. At least Denver got smoked.
I love it. Nothing like a last minute Raider choke to make an already Tebow fail day even better…
@ Dan – ???
Tebow played pretty damn well- Denver defense failed- Go ’9ers! Btw- glad to see the stand for sf group exposed publically- what a freaking joke- gonna be an uncomfortable Monday for that secretary!
Tebow ran 30 yards in the wrong direction and coughed up the ball for an eventual score… yeah he did pretty well today for the Patriots. @Columbo ??? about ???
@ Dan – Oh I was just trying to clarify if you are elated that the Raiders choked again. No big deal if you are. Not trying to start a furor. Everyone has their own favorite teams. As a Raider fan myself, I would have preferred that the Raiders tied for the lead in the West (since Denver lost). Personally I’m embarrassed because I malevolently presumed with 4 minutes to go in the game the magnitude of their lead was unobjectionable for a win.
Yeah I was elated. But in deference to your even keeled response and own embarrassment I will restrain myself from any further mockery.
@ Dan – Are you a 49er fan?
I’m pretty sure Dan mentioned he is a Pats fan.
Whatever football team we root for, don’t ever forget our common bond: OUR A’S AND OUR FUTURE NEW BALLPARK! I think the news re “Stand for San Francisco” pretty much confirms we’ll be popping some champagne very soon ;)
Giants are determined – determined – to impose their will on the people of San Jose. But you Giants fans keep wearing your SF caps and keep on rooting for them.
DocK is correct. I’m a Pats fan. Have been for 20 years. I can’t stomach rooting for SF teams. The very idea has always made me physically ill.
@ Dan – Nice! Me too.
I’m still not used to the fact that the Pats are considered a glamour franchise more so than the Raiders or 49ers. Could you imagine that being said in the 70′s/80′s or even the early 90′s? The sports world is a funny place. Good win over Denver though.
Early 90′s? Until 2001 it would have been unfathomable. And it wasn’t really even accepted until after about 2003. But they have easily been the best team of the last decade.
Having lived in Boston, I can say rooting for New England teams makes me as sick as rooting for SF teams.
@Dan
@Columbo
I’ve always hated the Patriots since the 1986 playoff lost to them. So does Matt Millen and Howie Long. See link to memories of the past.
http://articles.latimes.com/1986-01-06/sports/sp-13568_1_owner-billy-sullivan
@Dan
@Columbo
Here is a priceless quote from Howie Long….
“Sullivan was yelling at me throughout the game from the New England sidelines. He’s the jellyfish of Foxboro,” said the 6-foot-5, 275-pound Long, who also referred to the Patriots’ general manager as “a wimp” and “spineless.”
“At the end of the game I walked up and faked like I was going to hit him to make him squirm,” Long said. “I wish there weren’t laws to protect this guy.”
A picture’s worth a thousand words:
http://thelasthonestman.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/matt-millen-slugs-pats-gm-pat-sullivan-oldcleat.jpg
@Brian
Thanks for that priceless photo. I totally forgot about that. How awesome was that?
pjk says:
December 18, 2011 at 7:47 AM pjk(Quote)
Article in the Mercury News today about the “Stand for San Jose” scam. Sam Liccardo’s quote says it all – Frisco lawyers backed by Frisco millionaires forming a group called “Stand for San Jose.” The Giants are using our court system for this garbage. Go ahead and keep supporting them, people. Let’s go Giants!
^^^^^
I think most of us with a level head realize that Stand For San Jose front by the Giants is freakin utter joke!