Monte Poole has a column out tonight calling San Jose the “underdog,” which by extension would make Oakland the “favorite.” Which is fair, considering the amount of work that has to be done to get any team to move, let alone the A’s. There is something in the column around which I’d like to center the discussion.
“I’ll admit, 16 to 18 months ago, the team seemed on its way out of Oakland,” says Doug Boxer, vice chairman of the Oakland planning commission and co-founder of Let’s Go Oakland, a group formed to keep the A’s in the city. “We saw it as a ‘check the box’ process.
“But it has become apparent this is a real process. There has been correspondence with the commissioner. Oakland is providing relevant and real data showing the A’s can make it work here.”
Poole doesn’t say whether or not he thinks the process is legitimate. Boxer deserves credit for believing that it is.
However, there are lots of pro-Oakland folks who either believe that the whole thing is rigged and Oakland is doomed, or that it’s legitimate and Oakland will win out due to its work and difficulty in getting a San Jose deal to happen. The thing is, you can’t have it both ways. As outlined in my chart, if Oakland is deemed incapable of hosting the A’s long term, they will be out the door, by hook or crook. It may take several years, even a decade. An ownership change wouldn’t matter, since the problems would be related to the market, not an owner. Put it this way: the Giants got a lot of crap for financing $170 million for China Basin. Do you think MLB would approve a new pro-Oakland ownership group knowing that it would have to fund $350 million or more (after naming rights) for an Oakland ballpark, even if it felt that the regional support wasn’t there? Not likely.
The only way this works out the best for Oakland is if:
- A) The process is real and legitimate
- B) MLB rules that Oakland and the East Bay are enough to support the A’s
- C) Wolff/Fisher are so frustrated that they sell instead of waiting it out until after the 2017 season, when debt service for AT&T Park would end
That’s a lot of “what-ifs” to hinge your hopes on. If this is all legitimate, that’s what you have to believe. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say, “I trust MLB to do the right thing” and then claim that it’s rigged if the decision doesn’t come out your way. If it’s fair, you should be prepared to live with the ruling, good or bad. And if it isn’t, you should be calling B.S. on the whole thing from when the charade started in March 2009. Otherwise, your so-called principles don’t amount to a hill of beans.
newballpark.org 
Pingback: Tweets that mention newballpark.org / new A's ballpark -- Topsy.com
Besides Mark Purdy and Bob Fitzgerald, is there anyone else in the Bay Area media that is in favor of the A’s moving to San Jose?
Not sure what you mean by B) Oakland and East Bay “enough” to support the A’s. The A’s fans throughout the Bay Area. Oakland is the most centrally located and well connected transit hub in the Bay Area. For me the question would be if MLB decided that Oakland would be the best location for the ballpark, keeping in mind the historic, current and possible future fanbase.
(note: Alameda and Contra Costa counties together have a population over 2 1/2 million.)
I think ML meant if mlb thinks Oakland and the East Bay can financially get it done, not if there is a strong enough fanbase in the east bay. There certainly is.
FC,
Why does that matter? Besides, nearly the entire Bay Area media north of the Santa Clara County line is bias towards San Jose anyway.
Oakland Si:
In the future, downtown San Jose with BART and high-speed rail/Altamont HSR overlay, will be the transit hub for not only the Bay Area but Northern California as well. If MLB is truly looking towards the future, they’ll find the way to San Jose!
By the way, that Poole piece had to be one of the worst I’ve read concerning the A’s quest to get out of the decrepit Coliseum. I’ve already blew him up with an email, so I won’t rant here. But I will say this: I still find it amazing that some think the T-Rights are some God-like force that can’t be reckoned with. Well, they’re not, and as I’ve stated previously, T-Rights have been changed/altered when MLB found it in their best interest. This will be another case of the “Best interest of baseball.”
Lastly: why does Poole think he speaks for all A’s fans? As an A’s fans living in the South Bay, he doesn’t!
I agree with Tony D. People are biased against San Jose who are from other parts of the Bay Area. Simply put it is a tough pill to swallow that San Jose is the largest city and most lucrative in the Bay Area by far.
Monte Poole is a straight idiot for writing this article, show some education and see why in God’s green earth would anyone privately finance a ballpark in Oakland? Oakland deserves another shot? They had 15+ years to get it done and they have done shit.
San Jose is ready to go now and has been for 4-5 years. If the current owners can shell out $461 million dollars to built a ballpark now then why wait?
The Giants are a bunch of haters for holding San Jose hostage for these past 5-6 years. Selig needs votes and he needs to be sure before jumping into this. I think he is being too “detailed” as 16 months is ridiculous but he has stated that a decision will be coming soon.
Douglas Boxer gave up his season tickets 3 years ago…Some credibility this guy has.
The on top of all this if the A’s owners sell it will be to an out of town investor who wants to move the team. Who in the Bay Area wants this team when it plays in a dump in one the biggest ghetto in MLB?
It is so funny to see people think San Jose is another state yet alone the biggest city in the Bay Area.
San Jose A’s in 2014/2015
If there is no decision to put a special election on the ballot in San Jose for March I say the City of San Jose sues the shit out of MLB and gets their anti-trust exemption dropped.
I am sure Lew Wolff and John Fisher can easily pay the lawsuit under the table to the City of San Jose.
The more I read pro Oakland pieces, the more I expect Doug Boxer to run for office. It seems like that is what he is angling for here.
.
The process is legit. I don’t doubt that. But handicapping where it is right now… There is so much that seems to contradict either City’s spin that it is hard to read.
Jeffrey,
Maybe it’s the rose-colored glasses I wear every now and then, but I just don’t believe that all this talk between SJ Mayor Reed and MLB (both DuPuy/Wolff) is all for not. And I’m just not seeing anything to contradict SJ’s apparent “spin.” SJ has done a lot of work on this and will continue to do so. With the Rangers sale almost behind us, perhaps now will be the time for MLB to finally concentrate on resolving the territorial dispute to move the A’s to SJ and fairly compensate the Giants. We all know that there is no good reason for the Giants to hold onto San Jose/Santa Clara County…NONE!
Isn’t Poole an Oakland columnist? What else do we expect? There are certain Bay Area columnists stuck in 1960, when San Jose was smaller than Oakland and Frisco. They refuse to recognize San Jose’s new-found prominence and will never, never support a move of the A’s to San Jose. One of these clowns even referred to San Jose as “prune city,” which was accurate probably 70 years ago.
Tony, it matters because the casual fan believes what he or she hears and reads, whether it’s the truth or not. Most fans won’t take the time to research this issue for themselves, instead they’ll listen to these misinformed columnist. How can any logically thinking person look at the support the A’s have recceived in Oakland over the past 40 years and think that’s the best location for a new ballpark.?
I think it’s pretty clear the Giants have the local media in their back pocket. Which is why I applaud Fitz for coming out and saying the A’s belong in San Jose (even though he work for KNBR). I often times wonder how A’s are able to survive in this market, given everything they have working against them.
@pjk and fc- You guys nailed it on the head. The A’s in Oakland have gotten terrible support over the years and it is true that “old school” people in the Bay Area keep thinking San Jose is a bunch of “prune-yards” and not the new center for $$ and people in the market.
This even extends to Bud Selig as even though the # and $$ makes sense to have an MLB team in San Jose he still runs in circles and his MLB committee should be fired otherwise for this taking too long. It is obvious they have said San Jose is the place to be but Bud does not have the “balls or cajones” to move forward until he has every possibility covered. 16 months for that is insane.
For the Giants to control the top 2 cities in the Bay Area (SF and SJ) and for the A’s to be stuck in the 3rd largest city (Oakland) who is 1/3 of the size of San Jose is unfair and something needs to be done.
In 1970 Oakland was 362,000 people and San Jose was 204,000 today Oakland is 371,000 while San Jose is now 1,100,000 (At least)…How is this even a small argument for the MLB owners to look at?
pjk – Poole writes for the Bay Area Newsgroup, which also includes the Merc. Which makes his column even more amazing/puzzling. I could see if he were only writing to an east bay audience, but he has to know his column will be read by south bay readers as well. Kind of make you believe he is truly misinformed.
Yes, I know who he writes for. But before the Bay Area news group bought the Mercury News, I think Poole wrote exclusively for the East Bay… FWIW, to some people, Frisco’s status as a so-called “world class city with an international reputation” makes it more important for MLB than San Jose, even though Frisco has very few sports fans (largest city without a sports arena, 49ers are leaving.). Given the chance for major league sports in 1993, San Jose has hit a grand slam HR with its fanatic support for the Sharks. But I’ll bet most MLB owners still can’t find San Jose on a map.
Also it is amazing how the A’s dominate the Giants despite as FC puts it “have everything working against them”
Giants: 52 years 8 playoff berths, 3 WS appearances, 0 titles
A’s: 42 years, 15 playoff berths, 6 WS appearances, 4 titles
I wonder why the Giants HATE so much?
The A’s with their location, lack of fan support, and bad stadium shit all over the Giants in terms of on-field success.
Imagine the A’s with a new Downtown San Jose ballpark with a higher payroll and more corporate sponsors than the Giants…That is the Giants worst “nightmare” right there. Which is why they refuse to negotiate T-Rights.
By keeping the A’s bottled up in the East Bay they force the A’s to stay small market. Giants gotta be the biggest “hater sports team” in the Bay Area. They make Al Davis look friendly…
Great piece by Monte Poole. I’ve enjoy his column for years. Much better than that hack at the Murky News, Mark Purdy, who’s been tooting that SJ A’s horn forever it seems. And Fitz? Hack times 10. All the other longtime sportswriters all feel Oakland is the place for the A’s. I wonder why? BECAUSE IT IS!!!
SJ is still a very shaky sports market. Okay, the Sharks do well because they’ve been winning and it’s the only hockey team in NorCal, but they’ve lost money for years. Whats up with that?. WNBA=failed. Little Giants get 70% of capacity. Roller Hockey=Failed. Arena Football=did good, but advertised the cheerleaders over the team; MLS=not so great, but Uncle Lew’s gonna take care of that soon. He should stick to his little soccer team and stay out of MLB. Sell to someone who cares and will run it better.
fc– Newspaper chains want their columnists to have distinctive voices, no matter what the opinion of the management is. That’s one of the main advantages we still hold over things like ESPN.com. So Poole, who comes from the Oakland Trib, can be pro-Oakland while Purdy, from the Merc, can be all the way for San Jose. At the Chron, you’ll also see differences of opinion, read my A’s Drumbeat blog posts, they’re pro-San Jose even though that isn’t the newspaper’s basic opinion. The one rule (unwritten) is that writers for the same publication should not attack each other directly.
@sid, remember for a large portion of those years the Giants were outdrawn by the A’s. That adds to the hate.
re: WNBA
Um, there has never been a WNBA team playing in the Bay Area. I’d say we can dismiss that entire post.
Let’s look at support of major league sports:
Oakland – lousy support for A’s, Raiders.
San Jose – fabulous support for Sharks
Okay, the Sharks do well because they’ve been winning
Um, the Sharks drew fabulously at the gate even when the team was lousy. And they still continue to sell out even with a team that disappoints in the playoffs each season. Season ticket renewal rates always above 90%.
The Sharks, seating capacity 17,500, draw more fans most nights than the A’s, seating capacity 35,000. I’d say it’s time to move the A’s to San Jose.
I did make a mistake on the Earthquakes. They have done well as an expansion team and fill BuckShaw most games (10k). Their years at Spartan Stadium weren’t so great though. I spoke out without research, which I just did.
Speaking of Spartans. Half capacity (15k), pretty sad. , but college has trouble drawing at all venues. Can’t wait till they refurbish Cal’s stadium.
jk – I don’t think the majority of the local media thinks Oakland is the best location for the A’s, they just don’t think the A’s will be able to wrestle San Jose away from the Giants.
I’ll be the first to admit that the Giants off field operations blows the A’s away. They push all the right buttons, and just seem to have their act together. The A’s on the other hand seem to suffer through one PR nightmare after another. This, in my opinion, helps fuel the media’s affection for the Giants. They are the “cooler” team to be around, despite their on field performance. I’ve said it before, the A’s would be wise to hire a top notch PR guy/team to help reshape their image. Pull Lew out of the limelight, and get someone who is articulate and can effectively communicate with the local media. Maybe the A’s plan on doing this, but have held off just to keep fan support in the east bay down, but regardless, it ‘s something which has to be done.
@pjk–but the Warriors outdraw the Sharks with a lousy team. I’d say move the Sharks to the Oracle.
Bazinga!!!
@fc–I agree with you there on their PR image–it’s horrible. I remember under the Haas ownership, we were the cooler team. Lew is the Tony Hayward of the A’s. Send him off to Siberia!!
BAZINGA!!! I’m on a roll today!!
ut the Warriors outdraw the Sharks with a lousy team
,,,and the Warriors for 30 years have refused to identify with Oakland, no? I believe the one year the Warriors played in San Jose, they set team attendance records. (Basketball courts are smaller than hockey rinks; hence a thousand or so more fans can be squeezed into the building.)
Let me explain something to you: the Oracle Arena is not configured properly for NHL hockey. The Sharks would have insufficient seating in Oakland, where, by the way, NHL hockey already failed miserably. Indeed, the previous failure of Oakland’s NHL team led a lot of people to believe San Jose’s team would fail. But with the superior support of South Bay fans, the Sharks are one of the few hits in the NHL’s mostly failed expansion to so-called non-traditional markets.
re: I’m on a roll today!!
…if you consider losing arguments to be “on a roll,” then yes, you are on one.
@pjk–Warrior fans compared to Shark’s fans is like night and day. The Warrior faithful has been known as some of the best, most knowledgeable fans in the NBA for years, mostly made up of fans form the eastbay and SF.
Shark fans, may fill the tank and are often loud, but it stops right there. Maybe it’s because hockey came late to Cali, but they have much to learn. Some are still learning the rules, but booing during the Canadian anthem at the playoffs a few years ago was a pretty low point. You just don’t do that.
Sharks v. Warriors comparisons are just plain dumb. It is two distinctly different sports. I don’t know of a single informed person who calls Sharks fans “unknowledgable.” The Warriors and Sharks both draw well for the sports they play, San Jose is a shining (perhaps the only example) of an NHL expansion southward that worked out beyond expectations (way beyond).
.
I don’t expect either to draw that much less no matter where they play. Why? Because their attendance is more about the fact that they are the only team in the sport they play for 100 miles and they are in the 5th largest metropolitan area in the country. The Bay Area is an excellent market to be in.
.
jk, what really bothers me about your attacks on San Jose are 1. They are usually way off base and not based on anything but opinion (and protectionism of Oakland) and 2. They stink of stones in glass houses.
.
1. Oakland had an NHL team once you know. How’d that work out? Hint, they are half of the team in Dallas.
2. When the Coliseum complex opened it was touted as the bastion of transit oriented megafandom… They had 6 teams in the complex then as a result. They now have 3, probably 2 at most within the next 5 years (depending on A’s or Raiders leaving which is likely). So how is Oakland anymore of a proven market than San Jose? The answer is, it isn’t. Every sport you just mentioned as “failing in San Jose” that has had big league equivalents in Oakland (nice how you equated a Single A team to MLB as proof that San Jose sucks as a market for baseball, seriously?) and they have either laregly sucked at the gate, on the field, or both or they don’t exist anymore.
.
I am fine with pro Oakland people (I am one). But stop with the ridiculous bullshit.
@jefferey–
Outside of Lew, Chuck Reed, Mark Purdy and most of you guys on here, where’s the support for the SJ A’s? Oh yeah, their Facebook page has a whopping 1132 members on it. LetsGoOakland’s FB has over 40k and growing. I know, where’s the support at the gate? Many fans are disgusted in this ownership and are boycotting the games. I’ve cut back on my support for the same reason, but still go to games, but not like I use to. I’m seeing tonight and Sunday’s game. Lew getting my money makes me sick, but I’m doing it to support the players.
p.s. no need to cuss–I haven’t. You and ML tend to lose it on here I notice. Chill out.
@jk-usa – Funny that Oakland’s own sports history is littered with failures. Remember the California Golden Seals, the NHL’s first foray in NorCal? Gone – to Cleveland, no less! Ironically, that set up a situation in which the NHL tried again in an arena better suited for hockey in a hungry market, San Jose, which also allowed the Coliseum Arena to be properly remodeled for hoops.
Oakland is also the only city around here to lose its own homegrown team, the Raiders, only to kill the taxpayers and the A’s in its desperation to get them back. At least San Jose didn’t get raped bringing back the Quakes.
I also notice that when you’re losing an argument you quickly change the subject to something unrelated. Yeah, you really are on a roll. A roll of bullshit.
@ML–I remember the Golden Seals quite well. Saw some games back when I was 10-12. Cheap tix, small crowds. Poorly ran, lousy team. Oh, thank you SJ for allowing the Warriors to remodel the Oracle. The fans scoffed at going to the Cow Palace, but made the trip to SJ for that year. The new Oracle is incredible on what they did, but I have good memories of the old arena. Not a bad seat in the house, back when it seated under 13k. Late 70’s, the best seats were $24. Now 10 time that.
I didn’t lose anything, sorry for being impolite. You keep repeating the same inane garbage that is dubious at best, outright ridiculous at worst. We are patient people. Stick to the “real stuff” and everything will be cool.
.
Case in point… The A’s attendance now is in line with past attendance when the team had similar on the field performance. Even during the Haas years. You can look it up yourself at baseball-reference.com or you can read the post I did about it on athleticsnation.com called “Greener Grass, Episode 5: Attendance Fact and Fiction…”.
.
And… it is “Jeffrey.” No extra “e”, though ti does sound kind of cool to say “Jeff-uh-ree” instead of “Jeffrey.” I might have to look into getting that changed.
.
Last but not least… facebook groups really don’t mean a damn thing. What will be interesting is how many of either of those facebook groups have people who are going to put up deposits on charter seats or are business owners that will buy a suite or club level seating in advance to help pay for it.
@jeffrey–but if baseballsanjose had 40k, and letsgooakland had 1100, you’d say “see, there’s no support for Oakland, but a ton for SJ.” I think it’s significant. Where’s all the deposits for the SJ club? I’d commit to a deposit if they were concentrating on Oakland only.
Sorry for adding the extra “E’ in your name
Talk is cheap, and so is creating a Facebook account.
It’s obvious that most of those FB fans talk a good game, but never seem to make it out to the ballpark. Funny how they like to talk about the A’s rich history in Oakland, but ingore the attendance history. I guess the only thing which will quell their distain for Wolff are fireworks and jersey giveaways.
@fc–and the Giants really packed them in at Candlestick? A new baseball only park in a better area has turned that franchise around. The same can be done in Oakland.
First of all the Warriors are super lucky to be the only NBA team in what should be a two-team NBA market.
For how much they “suck” they still get fans and that is only because of a lack of options period. I drive up from San Jose to watch the Warriors cause I have no choice in the matter. Basketball is my favorite sport and I wish San Jose had a team. In 96-97 I went to 20 Warriors games in San Jose. Since then I go to 5 a year MAYBE in Oakland.
On the other hand the Bay Area is only a 1-team hockey market and the only 2 team hockey markets are NY (3 teams if u count the Devils) and LA…That is it. No one else has a 2 team hockey market in the country period.
I love the Sharks it is because of civic pride much like jk-usa has in Oakland.
The difference is simple…San Jose has one team and we all support them “thick through thin”. Imagine if the Sac Kings relocated to San Jose…The Warriors would have some competition that would erode their fan support because we would have options in the market.
No team should get fans if they suck 14 out of 16 years period. I am sorry you should be middle of the pack to the bottom of attendance. Not the Warriors though.
If the A’s move to San Jose you will see the same “civic pride” factor come into play and the A’s would sell out easily even with mediocre teams like the Giants have had much of this decade.
People would come because it is perfect weather for evening baseball and there are several bars and restaurants within walking distance in a safe place.
Seeing “San Jose” on the uniform will do wonders for the A’s and corporate sponsors in Silicon Valley.
The reason why 75% of Silicon Valley corporations do not do business with the Giants? It is because they are too far away and having a team in the Capital of Silicon Valley would rally everyone in the area.
The 49ers will get their stadium done in the South Bay because there so many corporations with $$ nearby Jed York knows this…So does Lew Wolff.
jk-I’m sure you had a chance to take in a game at “The Stick”. Can you honestly say your experience was the same as attending a game at the Coliseum? Candlestick was a terrible place to see a baseball game. It was cold, windy and foggy. I live on the peninsula, so I’m surrounded by Giants fans. Not one of the fans I know said it was a pleasant experience, except maybe on one of the few sunny warm days.
According to Oakland fans, the Coliseum is centrally located. It’s on the warmer side of the bay. It has a major freeway right next to it and it has BART. It has cheaper parking. It has cheaper tickets. Damn, I guess we’ll draw 30K+ for this weekend’s games against the first place Rangers. I’d be surprised if we drew 60K for the entire weekend. Oh wait a minute, tonight is “Love Wolff” night because it’s fireworks night. Better make that 62K for the weekend.
@Sid–2 NBA teams in the bay area? Hmm, that’s a reach I think. Maybe the Kings can relocate to SJ. New arena probs and small corporate base is killing them over there.
Seeing SJ A’s on a uniform just doesn’t look or sound right. Looks so AAA to me.
What would they chant?
Can’t say Let’s go San Jose! Sounds stupid.
Let’s Go Oakland has always had a nice ring to it.
@fc–I’ve seen many a game at the Stick and it does sucks. Always had to see when the Pirates were in town–my dad’s hometown team. I get so jealous when I go to At&T. What could be in Oakland with the A’s players and A’s fans inside. I hate the Giants and their fans, but do like SF and Oakland as a city. SJ’s okay, but don’t make it down there that often. Nothing really there for me to do. Went to the Camera Theaters once downtown. Strange multi-plex. Can’t beat The Grand Lake in Oakland though. And how bout that Fox renovation? Awesome. What a venue. been there 3 times already.
jk… I wouldn’t be saying that at all. I am not anti Oakland. I don’t really care if it is Oakland or San Jose and facebook groups are useless as far as I can tell.
@jk-usa Wow…You are a “out there” as everyone on this blog says you are.
San Jose being Triple AAA?? You are smoking some good shit…Let me get a hit.
San Jose is 3 times the size of Oakland smart guy. Oakland isn’t even a Triple AAA city…more like in the rookie leagues or Single A and that is even stretching it.
Oakland is so ghetto now even Mark Curry from “Hanging with Mr. Cooper” wouldn’t live there anymore.
If the Bay Area can support 2 baseball and 2 football teams the NBA would be cake. San Jose was bringing in 15k in fan support for the Warriors in 96-97 and they were terrible without the San Jose name on their jerseys.
The Kings would thrive in San Jose like the Sharks do right now. San Jose is where they will move once their current arena proposal falls through…Which it will.
You think Oakland has better fans? You are so wrong it isn’t even funny.
Who cares who chants “Lets go Oakland” or whatever….It is about the team surviving from a business sense.
Business sense?? That is something for sure you don’t have.
@Sid–yeah, it’s all a business , all about money,and that’s the sad part. Overpriced tix, over paid athletes, greedy owners, it’s all pretty sad.
You are so right, I have absolutely no business sense at all, but am just a hardcore fan who is tired of being jacked around.
I have a feeling that the East Bay fan base has been dormant for 15 years and will not return until a new ballpark is built or the A’s win the WS.
Sid, I honestly doubt that a second NBA team in the Bay Area would be good for the NBA or for the Warriors/ For that reason alone, i don’t know that it will happen. I lived in Sacramento for 7 years, it was a great time and it is a great city. I became a Kings fan during those years and I would openly root for them as opposed to the Warriors should they come to the Bay Area… but if they do leave Sacramento, I believe Seattle would be the most likely destination. Other places like San Diego, or Kansas City, also might be higher on the radar for the NBA (for various reasons) than turning the Bay Area into a two team market. Especially considering the Bay Area’s entertainment dollar is currently stretched between 2 MLB, 2 NFL, 1 NBA, 1 NHL, 1 MLS and many nonsports related things to do.
Tony,
When the mayor pulls a ballot initiative because MLB asked him to and that becomes a “positive sign” for San Jose, it is completely spin. No matter how much MLB and Reed talk, that move alone shows that MLB is not sold on San Jose.
.
Most likely, they are trying to let Oakland prove they can keep the team instead of delving into TR’s. We will know soon enough, I hope.
Jeffrey,
It wasn’t so much a “positive sign” that MLB asked SJ to pull the ballot initiative; it was the promise by MLB to pay for a special election in March. I know, I know, they said “if necessary,” but I believe that’s only because the official report hasn’t come out yet. And I respectfully disagree with you Jeffrey that the “move alone shows that MLB is not sold on San Jose.” Let’s see: a city of 1,100,000 with massive corporate support, political support (SVLG, SJ), a naming rights deal in place and 40 miles south of SF. San Jose and Lew Wolff are basically ready to go (election notwithstanding)! Who wouldn’t be sold on SJ? Look, none of us were present when Reed met/talked with Wolff/DuPuy in April and a couple of weeks back. If he’s confident in the process and putting a “positive sign” on what’s being fed to him, than I am to (simple as that).
If the process isn’t legit, why does the process have to take so long?
Is the process legit? I think it is. The more I think about it, the more I agree with Jeff. The delay is the committee’s and Seligs way of giving Oakland one more chance.
I think the committee recognizes that San Jose is a viable option. If it didn’t we wouldn’t be having this discussion right now. The committee would have released its report requiring the A’s to stay in Oakland. What the committee wants to see is whether Oakland can get their act together and put together a doable plan. Not just fluff ideas, but a plan involving a single site, with solid numbers to back it up. Hopefully Dellums is working hard to put something significant together, otherwise the next 6 months will be just a waste of time. If Oakland is able to present a solid plan, I suspect MLB will give them a window in which to get the ballpark done. If at any point Oakland fails, San Jose will step back into the picture. The big question at that point will be whether Fischer and Wolff will stick around through this process, or whether Fischer will allow Wolff to stick around through the process.
If all of this is in fact true, I just hope Dellums and the City of Oakland are not #$*&ing around just to make it seem like they’re doing something. Either do something significant, or get out of the way.
if the a’s do move down to SJ you think they’re going to have at least an alternate logo for the A’s/caps where it’s an interlocking S and J like we see with both NYC teams, SF, LA, KC, and etc?
Sid…just for your information, Mark Curry does still live in Oakland. And his kids go to grade school in Oakland as well.
Just for the sake of argument, let’s say Oakland does “get it’s act together and puts together a doable plan.” For the future of MLB and Bay Area baseball,are the A’s in Oakland a better long-term option than San Jose? Take your tinfoil hats off for this one people! I know some will say an Oakland option would allow MLB to skirt the territorial issue, but as I’ve stated previously, those “rights” aren’t sacred and can be changed by a 3/4 vote of MLB owners. Territories have changed in the past and the only, ONLY, reason that the Giants have Santa Clara County was because they themselves were supposed to move here in 1992. Since Neukom can’t sue MLB (he’s not “God” as some here like to imply), his talk of fan base/corporate support from Silicon Valley is bull shit, and since those “rights” really belong to MLB, then all threats of litigation are hot air at best. The A’s in San Jose: an owner willing to fork the construction bill, naming rights deal with a tech giant, corporate base ready to buy more than 35 luxury suites, political support, city of over 1 million, geographically further from SF…can you say the proverbial no brainer? I’m sure MLB can and will!
R.M.,
A little off topic: I noticed over at The Biz of Baseball that PNC now has in-park naming rights at Miller Park. Any chance Lew Wolff does something similar with Cisco Field to help finance the ballpark? Could we see an “iTerrace”, “Adobe Club Section”, or “EBay Party Level”?
@Jeffrey- The current delay has nothing to do with MLB not being sold on SJ–it has to do with BS not wanting to take on Neukom and the TR issue—SJ is by far the superior market….which is why both the gints and A’s are fighting over it…if TR were not in place the A’s would already be in SJ—anyone who argues that is smoking some good shit—the real battle being waged by the gints is to get rid of the A’s and become a one team market—if MLB decides not to tackle the TR issue they are putting their stamp of approval on the A’s moving from the Bay Area at some point in the next 5 years—
Tony D…we appreciate your passion, but I think you need to calm down a little. I think you’ve become too emotionally vested with the possibility of the A’s relocating to San Jose. Whether the team moves to San Jose or stays in Oakland, the thing we have to remember is that the ownership doesn’t give a damn about you or me (or fans in general). All they are trying to do is maximize their earnings potential. Right now they believe they could make more money in San Jose.And they may be right. However, If another city offered a better deal than what they think they could get from San Jose, then they would forget they ever heard of San Jose. We just need to keep this all in the right perspective.
@Dennis–sorry–no evidence to back up your statement—the ownership is committed to the bay area and feels San Jose is the best place to ensure that the team is financially healthy—once again…the gints ownership agrees with them completely–San Jose is a better place for the team…but the gints prefer the A’s leave the area–if you have a beef with an ownership group is should be Neukom—if he wins the TR battle the A’s are gone in 5 years…and BS has already gone on record saying they never should have been allowed to move to oakland in the first place–
GoA’s…..you are so naive.
@Dennis–lol–that is one for the ages—the guy who spews nothing but emotional bs–never has any facts to back up his Oakand only comments…and calling others naive…we’ll see Dennis who is naive/emotional/clueless when the game is over—
GoA’s – Ignore Dennis….these ProOaklanders have got waxed by Al Davis too many times hence their skepticism….
@ML — please a leave an archive of this site published, so we can look back a see who was right after all.
… off to watch the A’s v. Rangers today (at the coliseum of course). We’ll be tailgating around 10:30. BBQ veggie dogs and seitan!
OT – letsgoas,
I think the A’s would (and should) keep the “A” as their cap logo. It’s a connection to their roots back when they were the Philadelphia A’s.
I wouldn’t mind though if they changed their colors back to blue and white. I’m not a real big green or gold person.
@jk-usa- You are hardcore fan who speaks from the heart and that is cool. But unless the team survives from a business sense there will be no “chanting” period and that would be sad to see the A’s leave. Better to chant “Lets go A’s” in San Jose then nothing?
@Jeffrey- The Bay Area would be a perfect 2 team market as everyone can see how the Warriors get so much support despite stinking it up the past 15 years for the most part. No way the NBA leaves Nor Cal/Bay Area with 1 team. It is bad enough the Warriors have zero competition in the Bay Area but if the Kings leave Sacramento the Warriors would then own the Sac area as well.
San Diego, Seattle, and Kansas City are smaller markets than the Bay Area split in half (4 million people) plus SD is all Laker fans anyways while Seattle didn’t give a shit watching their team leave to OKC. KC is too small of a city hence why the Kings moved west years ago.
Kings in San Jose would get better support than the Warriors in Oakland for sure and force the W’s to evolve and make better management decisions as they make money and lose right now. That is not right.
@Dennis- The Mr. Cooper remark was a joke and it is good to know he still lives there. Very interesting…Thanks for the info, I used to love that show as a kid growing up.
@FC- If Oakland or any other East Bay city had something viable the committee would have announced it and Lew Wolff would be working on it with the particular city and the committee. It is very clear they have said San Jose is the best place as let’s face it…Oakland has zero downtown land, no EIR, has not started negotiations with local businesses who need to move, no way of putting a public subsidy in, and Wolff has gone on record stating he will can only pay for the stadium in San Jose with residential entitlements dead because of the recession.
Keep in mind “residential entitlements” is how he was going to make it work in Oakland and Fremont because there isn’t and existing downtown site in place like San Jose has.
Old Blue is right, Oakland has lost the A’s already unless Oakland hangs “themselves” and puts in 150-200 million plus buys the land the A’s are long gone to San Jose or elsewhere.
If Oakland had anything close to resembling something that could work for the city and the owners it would be publicly known it is being worked on…Why? It is because Oakland is in the A’s current territory.
The delay for 16-17 months is because the report Selig needs has two parts.
1. Best location for A’s (San Jose)
2. All other options and making sure to show the other owners that it is in the best interest of MLB to make the Bay Area shared and let the A’s move to San Jose. Of course in this part of the report is how Giants will be affected and how should they be compensated? If they deserve any?
If I am Selig, I see how much of a “cock” Bill Neukom is and I would be very detail oriented before sitting down with the owners to make sure as he put it “One club can’t say did we try that or how about this?”
Otherwise Neukom will sway the owners in another direction screwing this whole thing up. As they say the “Devil is in the details”.
@fc—leave the green and gold colors alone. EVERY team has some sort of blue and white in them. BORING!! Actually, I wouldn’t really care anyway because I’d be boycotting the team and MLB if they moved to SJ. Back to the colors I said last week: Teal and Magenta.
@jk-usa – Keep the green and gold regardless of where they go. Though it’s worth noting that the Sharks introduced gold into their color scheme last year, and the teal has been getting more green over the years.
@David – The old blog is still archived on blogger. The new one will stay up as long as the Internets are running.
re: Actually, I wouldn’t really care anyway because I’d be boycotting the team and MLB if they moved to SJ.
Your choice. We’ll all be “boycotting” them if they end up in San Antonio. Of course, if the A’s leave Oakland you can thank people like Jerry Brown, Ron Dellums, the Oakland City Council, for doing less than nothing to help the A’s. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jerry Brown has “Worked hard to chase the A’s out of town” on his resume.
Gold in the Sharks logo? Not that I know of. They put “burnt orange” in the logo, replacing the silver-gray. The silver-gray was better.
@pjk – Is it burnt orange? Whatever it is, it looks out of place.
@Sid- all the reasons you give for the NBA wanting a team in San Jose, are actually reasons they wouldn’t. They have a franchise that is thriving. but not to the point where there is a huge number of basketball fans that are under served. They don’t want competition for the Warriors in their own market.
I’d keep the “A” logo, just thinking maybe an alternative cap featuring an SJ. Agreed about the A’s keeping green/gold as too many teams feature blue in their color scheme.
NYY, LAD, TEX, SEA, BOS, TOR, SD, CLE, Cubs, NYM, ATL, DET, CLE, MIN, MIL, KC, WAS.
That’s over half the league. TB which had green before changing it to blue a few years ago, leaves the A’s as the only team I believe that uses green as a major color.
I know the A’s did it back in the mid 90s but I wouldn’t mind if they went to an all green cap with only a white “A” logo, basically what they use as their road caps and changing the green “A” for a white “A”.
If you wanna go sort of retro, would you like to see the “apostrophe” and “s” on the A’s logo to be removed and just have the old english A like it was during their PHI years.
@Jeffrey- If the Kings moved to San Jose then the old Sacramento territory would be given to the Warriors as Oakland and Sacramento are within 75 miles of each other. Therefore the Warriors would only lose marginal fans from the South Bay.
I am just sick of seeing them thrive as a business when they suck year in and year out. With some competition it force them to evolve and become a better run team.
8 million people to one team, especially in basketball is ridiculous.
@Sid–About the W’s, a new SJ team would definitely be a wake up call to run the W’s better. Hopefully with this new ownership things will get better. Cohan was the Worst. He makes Lew Wolff look like a great guy, and you know how I feel about him!
Lew Wolff has spent several years and several million dollars trying to keep the A’s in Northern California. But he, and not Neukom, is the bad guy. OK.
@jk-usa-We agree on something for once ha!
Cohan is for sure far worse than Lew Wolff will ever be. I pray the new ownership does a lot better but then again how could they do worse than Cohan?
Competition breeds improvement hence why I think the Bay Area needs a 2nd team.
My dream would be if the A’s build a new, state of the art stadium in San Jose, then Mark Cuban buys the team.
Ok I was looking at Google Maps around Oakland, and I saw a place called Snow Park, next to Lake Merritt, a few blocks away from Oak 19th BART Station. Has this location been looked at and if not, why wouldn’t it work?
There’s no way an MLB ballpark would be able to be placed at Snow Park let alone how close that site is up against Lake Merritt itself. If you were going to build a ballpark anywhere within that same vicinity then Victory Court is the best and only realistic location and still be within walking distance to the lake, BART, Amtrak and Downtown/JLS. Construction has already begun on the south end of the lake to redevelop the Lake Merritt Channel/”riverwalk” plan. With the help of a new pedestrian bridge which will also be constructed, residents and visitors of the Lake Merritt area will be able to walk to the Oakland Estuary which is exactly where the Victory Court site locations sits.
.
http://cbs5.com/local/lake.merritt.project.2.1680565.html
Victory Court has a nice ring to it. We won the series, 2 out of 3, and the games I saw we split 1-1.
Victory Court is way too far up the 880 for this to work. Last I checked the speed limit is 55 and there is constant traffic in that area even during off-peak hours.
Is this the best site Oakland can come up with? This pales in comparison to Downtown San Jose’s site by far.
I see why Lew Wolff or any other A’s owners in the past refuse to pay for a stadium here. It is in need of major re-development as a whole. Plus there a lot of nearby businesses that would totally get pissed about a new ballpark coming up.
It is just not an easy place to get to in general which brings me to my next point.
It makes sense why Wolff wanted Coliseum North to build the ballpark and mini-mall/residences. Far more land to work with and it is further south on the 880 allowing for easier travel and with a BART station much closer to the site.
Victory court could work but it would need a major overhaul and several businesses would need to move or would flat out object much like Pacific Commons in Fremont.
I know I am pro-San Jose and all but how can one think this is even feasible for the A’s to move to the Victory Court area?
@Sid–I keep reading that Victory Ct. is the front runner. Uptown, of course, would of been the ultimate, but it’s all built up with condos and apartments–but they aren’t selling too well. If the ballpark would of been built there, I wonder if those places would still be struggling to fill up or what. That’s a neat, funky part of town. Cooler than China Basin for I think, which isn’t the most exciting place in SF. Yeah, it’s built up with those condos all over, the new Safeway and Amici’s which I love, but even downtown SJ’s area is neater, but no water near with boats and stuff, which is kind of nice.
I will take a drive to Victory Ct. this week, check it out close up, walk from the Lake Merritt Bart station to there and see how tight it will be. A lot of wok will probably be needed to make it work I’m sure
re: Uptown, of course, would of been the ultimate, but it’s all built up with condos and apartments–but they aren’t selling too well.
Is this the spot where Jerry Brown refused to consider a downtown ballpark?
Downtown ballparks have been economic boons for cities throughout the country, including right in Frisco. But Jerry Brown would have none of it. We need a visionary like this as governor, no?
Jerry Brown did sell the Uptown development to a developer who had Brown in his back pocket.
Uptown would have been perfect as jk-usa pointed out and they should have done a combo ballpark-condo development but Jerry Brown is a rat bastard and I PRAY he doesn’t become governor.
Meg Whitman isn’t much better but at least she comes from the private sector which is huge since most politicians have no idea how to run a business hence the huge debt the state is in.
The A’s offered to pay for 300 million of the 400 million dollar project for either Uptown or Coliseum North only to have Jerry Brown shoot it down. Such BS….
@Sid — I wouldn’t consider Queen Meg’s private sector experience a plus. See Craigslist and Skype deals for more info.
On the Meg v Jerry thing. I don’t really want either as our Governor. One is Brown and the other is a person who has shown that she clearly has no idea how government works in California (hint, the Governor isn’t exactly elected Queen of California).
@jeffrey–i wish we had a different Dem run, but I’ll pick JB over Meg. Hec, I’d prefer Meg Ryan or Meg Tilley over Meg Whitman..lol. I despise Carly F. more than Meg. Boxer’s my gal. I really like her. Both should be close races, but hopefully the money gals will fall short.
@all – Not a general political forum, people.
Maury Brown weights in with his takeof the A’s/Giants situation.
Even though I don’t agree with some of the stuff Maury puts out, he’s really a STAND UP GUY! Went to bat for Portland to get its own MLB club and did a helluva job covering the Rangers sale/auction. But one thing that still irks the hell out of me: this notion of the A’s moving to San Jose cutting into the Giants Silicon Valley corporate sponsorships and season-ticket base. This already has either been proven false (see SVLG poll of early this year) or can’t be proved (Giants fans switching to A’s fans with SJ team). You’d think by reading some of these articles that the A’s were trying to relocate to San Jose from Vancouver B.C. or something. THE A’S AND GIANTS HAVE EXISTED IN THE SAME MARKET FOR 42 YEARS! Glad I got that off my chest.
my bad. poli=many tics=blood sucking leeches
Have to disagree, it’s entirely possible to view the process as a sham, and still think that Oakland will win out from it. The process is being run by a used car salesman, which pretty much takes care of the first part.
If Oakland ponies up something more attractive than San Jose does, the “process” will determine that Oakland is a legitimate market. If San Jose ponies up something more attractive, then the “process” will determine that Oakland can’t possibly support a baseball franchise. Bug Selig is just buying time until he can figure out whether screwing Lew Wolff or screwing the Giants is more profitable for baseball, because if there’s one thing we know, it’s that a used car salesman is bound to screw somebody.
Oakland ponies up something more attractive than San Jose? WOW! Would love to see that! How are the Giants being “screwed” by MLB allowing the A’s to relocate to San Jose? Since they only have SCCo. because they were supposed to move here and all their hot air about corporate support/fan base from Silicon Valley is, well, HOT AIR! Enlighten us Jeepers!
@Tony D–it may not be that Oakland itself ponies up anything better than SJ–it may be that the collective deal, TR buy out, political capital necessary to make it happen given BS is weak, and future precedence may make SJ unattainable…..unfortunately for the A’s–because there is no doubt in anyones minds that SJ is the better location for a MLB sports franchise…BS is not the man you want him to be—not even close—what was given to the gints for free is now a major peice of the puzzle working to force the A’s out of the Bay Area—this move out of the area is becoming entirely more possible—don’t expect alot out of Oakland….a site will be named and there will be some going thru the motions to try and bide time…but at some point LW will sell for a heftty premium and the team will move…Neukom wins—all A’s fans lose
I agree with Go A’s.
Why is this taking so long if San Jose is obviously a better choice and Oakland cannot pony anything up?
I have said previously that BS is trying to just get everything in order before taking on the Giants head on. But the possibility totally remains the A’s may never get to San Jose and will be forced to leave the Bay Area giving the Giants what they want…A one team Bay Area market. BS was against the A’s moving to Oakland in 1968 and said “it was a terrible mistake”.
Logic would conclude that BS would make it happen but the previous A’s owners (Schott and Hoffman) wanted to move to San Jose and BS blocked it by stating “San Jose is part of the SF Giants territory”. Now after Fremont fell through he sent a committee to resolve this and nothing has happened in 17 months (and counting).
Oakland can only get back in the game if they pony up 150-200 million in public money and the land to even stand a chance against San Jose head to head. In San Jose they have a perfect downtown location, a wealthy base of people, and corporate sponsors to get this thing built 100% privately where the A’s would make a profit despite paying and operating the new place themselves.
This seems pretty cut and dry to anyone with “common sense” but what I have learned there is “no justice” in sports and the clock is ticking.
BS has to come back in December with a resolution so San Jose can put up a March Special Election.
If BS delays further then San Jose will have no choice but to sue MLB and erode their anti-trust exemption and you know they will win for the simple reason the A’s have been in the Bay Area for 42 years already. It is not like they are moving to San Jose from outside the state. Any judge would see the Giants and MLB are idiots for locking out San Jose.
On top of all this Lew Wolff and John Fisher would fund this “under the table” to the city of San Jose and the lawsuit would be peanuts compared to the ultimate prize of moving the team to San Jose.
I am so sad to see this as I was a huge Giants fan for 20 years and I am not even excited at the fact they could make the playoffs this year. I am from San Jose and I totally pissed at their organization for being “haters” and not returning the favor to the A’s.
At the end of the day if there is “justice” the A’s will move to San Jose with minimal $$ paid to the Giants as Maury Brown pointed for something “that was never originally theirs”.
I know you pro-San Jose/anti-Oakland guys don’t think this is worth a hill of beans, but the latest Facebook numbers has Lets Go Oakland at 41,407 members… and growing; and Baseball San Jose at 1134 members and stuck there for quite awhile. Comon, you guys need to get the word out for your cause!!
More Maury Brown (from his tweet):
Some advance media…. I will be on KNBR 1050 in San Francisco at 1:30pm Thurs. talking A’s/Giants battle over San Jose, plus Rangers sale
@jk–my son has 700 friends on facebook-by your analagy that makes him one of the most popular kids around…reality is it is meaningless–and it obviously isn’t representative of season tix holders or tix sales in general–now what would be interesting is to have MLB level the playing field–declare the Bay Area shared territory and than allow the A’s to make their decision based upon season ticket holder deposits and contractul agreement for PSL’s or luxury suites. No doubt which city would win that contest–and than you would see how many of your 41k facebookers really care–
@GoA’s–Congrats, your son is a VERY popular kid. 434 more friends and he’ll be as popular as the Baseball San Jose folks.
FYI, LetsGoOakland has committed $500k so far for tickets. Considering Oakland has no chance whatsoever according to you guys, that’s a good start.
@jk-usa 500k is nothing of the 461 million dollars needed to get this done.
There are 80 companies in the Bay Area that are 1 billion or more in revenue and 2/3 of them sit in Silicon Valley.
The other 1/3 sit in SF/OAK and the rest of the Bay Area hence why the Giants don’t want the A’s to move to San Jose.
500k is peanuts compared to what the San Jose area would provide. The Cisco naming rights are only good if the team is in Silicon Valley and is worth far more than 500k.
If that # was 5 million then I would say that is a “good start”.
@jk- while you like to tout the 41k facebookers and $500k so far for tix–I would point out using simple math that at $25-$30/tix for a full season only 5% (2000 of 41,000) of your facebookers are interested in season tix—and thats assuming no PSL’s– throw on a $10k PSL cost and I bet the number interested drops significantly—as a point of comparison Cisco has signed up for $4M/year for 30 years–$120M over the life of that agreement.
correction….did the math too quickly….at $25-$30/tix for a full season LESS THAN 1% (200 of 41,000) NOT 5% or 2000 of your facebookers are interested in season tix…..I can only hope that the Oakland group continues to promote their facebook dominance and $500k of committed tix holders to MLB—if ever they are playing into SJ’s hand this is it—
@GoA’s- You wanna bag the number of Oakland supporters and believe San Jose is some promise land. Where are all of these San Jose A’s fans? You think there are so many, like they are gonna crawl out of the woodwork or something. Im not saying there isn’t fans in San Jose, but it isn’t a damn promise land. Your just another delusional dumbass who wants a ballpark in their city. Im guessing you live there, because most of the San Jose supporters are indeed from there. It aint gonna happen and Lew’s gonna have to sell cause he didn’t get his way.
@FU—I don’t live in SJ…and my support for the ballpark there is based on being an A’s fan and wanting whats best for the A’s so that they can actually compete v. being the equivalent of the current Pirates who will never make enough money to actually be able to compete even though they have one of the best ballparks. Whether or not SJ happens remains to be seen…but I would put the odds on a new ballpark being built in SJ higher than a new ballpark being built in Oakland. Oakland fans like yourself are hiding behind TR’s….there is no ownership group that will be willing to step up to the plate and announce that they will invest $500M for a new ballpark in Oakland—-if there was one they would be putting public pressure on LW to sell now…… If the gints are successful in locking out the A’s from SJ the team will move…..unless the city of Oakland is willing to step up and build the ballpark–which won’t happen—so before you gloat about TR keeping SJ locked out…or that you have 200 facebookers willing to buy season tix—be prepared to be bummed when the A’s move because of the gints tactics
@F.U.- Just like the Pro-Oakland guys always talking with emotion and not logical facts. Delusional dumbass?? Keep your self-righteous comments to yourself or at least back them up with logical #s or facts like Go A’s has.
San Jose vs. Oakland as cities are not even a comparison and the fact the team remains in the Bay Area should be the common denominator between pro-SJ and pro-Oak fans. It is shocking to see so many pro-Oak fans not want to support the team if they move to a different part of the Bay Area.
The A’s play in the worst dump in all of MLB and the City of Oakland has done “jack shit” to get them a new venue. You Oakland fans blame the owner? Take a hard look in the mirror and you will see you are a big reason to blame as even when the A’s won titles or were very good attendance has stunk and on top of all this you want the A’s owners to “privately” finance a ballpark in Oakland for your civic pride?
Baseball is a business and even the previous owners (Scott and Hoffman) could not get it done in Oakland and they offered to pay 300 million out of 400 million of the ballpark cost one two occasions but got shot down.
Oakland has zero downtown land, no EIR, has not started negotiations with private land owners about selling or relocation, and there is no way any owner can make a profit building it privately in Oakland nor does their City Council give a rat’s ass.
At least Lew Wolff is being honest and is willing to pay the entire cost of the ballpark in San Jose who has a downtown site, EIR done, only needs to move or buy out 1 business, and has the corporate base to support the team.
Fans you ask? Civic pride is huge in San Jose hence why the Sharks have sold out 15 straight years and did so even when they were bad. Also you pro-Oak fans can still see the team just hop down 680 or 880 (opposite of traffic) and come to Downtown San Jose and catch a game.
Most people in San Jose root for both teams and would support the team in herds as the A’s have been in the Bay Area for 42 years already.
It is you naive pro-Oak fans who care about themselves and not the health of the team or its ability to compete on the field and as a business.
In San Jose their payroll would be top 5 in MLB and larger than the Giants. They would be able to attract big name free-agents and keep their homegrown stars. They would become a big market team all of a sudden in the Bay Area.
But you pro-Oak fans feel San Jose may as well be San Antonio or Portland….RIGHT.
I agree with GoA’s, even with new park in Oakland they would be like Pittsburgh…Small market team in a nice ballpark.
In San Jose they would be a big market team with a nice ball park and would have the cash flow to do a lot more than in Oakland in any sense.
sid
You speak from emotion and not facts. Moving the A’s to SJ is rearranging things. Oakland is not a small market nor is San Jose a big market. It is the same shared market in the Bay Area. (an argument you are trying to make when it comes to TR) Neither you nor GoA’s can provide any evidence that Oakland will be a constant bottom dweller or San Jose will be a panacea with a new stadium. In fact the deck is stacked in the favor of new stadiums have zero effect on team performance. (look here for some good writing on the subject http://www.fieldofschemes.com/news/archives/2010/02/4028_effect_of_new_b.html)
I don’t care where the A’s end up and there are logical arguments that can be made about why San Jose would make sense. However you have yet to make a single one.
@A’sobserver–you don’t have to look much further than why the gints would forgo a payment of $50-100M to give up their TR claim to SJ—moving the team further away from their own ballpark. You have both teams saying SJ is of extremely high value—while no one is making that claim about Oakland—this is fact–not emotion
@GoA’s–My dream would be for LW to sell now to a local EB millionaire(s) and get that new ballpark in Oak built. There was the article the other day on Reggie Jackson in the Oak/Hayward papers, mainly on his car collection, but he said he will always be an Oakland A , that he has home in Oakland and would consider an ownership stake if it comes up again (he tried in 1999 in 2004,).
“You never know,” he said. “When the stars align, and when the timing is right, that opportunity may present itself.”
jk-don’t want to knock your dream but unfortunately that is what is driving most Oakland only fans…dreams. If this group of EB millionaires existed and they were willing to invest $500M of their own money in a ballpark in downtown Oakland more power to them…do it…make yourself known and get on with the game. But no one is stepping forward in this fashion like Larry Ellison did talking publically that he was willing to buy the ’49ers who were not for sale as well as making it known that he would like to buy the Warriors prior to them being for sale. Bottom line if the gints are successful in their quest to uphold TR…and your dream doesn’t come true….the A’s are gone from the Bay Area…and thats the part that I have a hard time with Oakland only fans…preferring the A’s leave the Bay Area rather than move to San Jose—makes no sense to me as an A’s fan
@GoA’s–where would they go? Cities won’t get burned like in the past, raising taxes for new parks. New owners will have to foot the entire bill. This bad economy doesn’t help out either.
@Jk – That attitude doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence.
@goa’s
.
like JK said., where would they go? Any other city would have the same political and financial issues that would prevent public money much like the bay area. Not only that but any other city would also have to find a downtown site, go through the whole process again, and they would be farther behind that even what Oakland has done thus far. What owner would have time to do that? Lets not forget that the other cites mentioned would be smaller with less of a corporate base that exists in Oakland and its surrounding areas.
.
Any talk of moving is a scare tactic at best.
@A’sObserver–agreed!!!
Talk of moving… The only way I personally see it, is if there is another market that can boast similar corporate support to the East Bay and promise more than half of stadium construction costs will be paid from public funds. We know the Oakland City Leaders have 35 Corporate Sponsors lined up, and they have pledged $500k in deposits. I don’t think that is really unattainable outside of the Bay Area.
.
An arrangement like this could have the potential of reducing the club’s debt service, with the trade off of less upside potential in the market over the long term.
.
If you think about it in terms of a 20 year plan, it would be interesting to evaluate places like Portland, San Antonio/Austin or Sacramento (growing media markets and Metro areas) and project whether potential revenue in a less affluent area, with greater public investment, could generate more operating income than staying in the Bay Area and paying the $20 M in debt service every year over that period of time. I guess it is a simple NPV calculation, though the variables are not exactly concrete (and the public financing thing is most likely a no go in Sacramento as much as it is by the Bay, not sure in Portland)
re: Moving…..sure that the city of Seattle felt the same way about the Sonics….and they moved to OKC? The question on the table is who will build a ballpark for the A’s; LW says he will build one in SJ; so far no one has stepped up to the plate in Oakland; relative to other cities…who knows what millionaires/billionaires reside in other potential cities…what I find ironic about AO’s statement which jk supported whole-heartedly is while jk dreams of East Bay millionaires stepping in and buying the A’s and building a ballpark with their own money, these type of people don’t exist anywhere else in the country…like San Antonio (Red McCombs), like Portland (Paul Allen) who already are invested in sports franchises and are very loyal to their respective areas. Regarding Oakland having far better corporate support than other areas—come on—Oakland is a small market team receiving 30+M in revenue sharing on an annual basis. There is only upside to ,moving to either San Antonio or Portland when compared to Oakland. Citing $500k in deposits was interesting enough when I assumed it was facebookers…but to say that 35 Corporate sponsors have total of $500k is down right embarassing….there is one corporate sponsor in San Jose that has contractually committed to $4M/year for 30 yearrs—numbers like that talk—the others are a joke–
“There was the article the other day on Reggie Jackson in the Oak/Hayward papers, mainly on his car collection, but he said he will always be an Oakland A ”
.
When ge said this, he was wearing a Yankees cap.
CSN California has a poll right now to vote where you would like to see the A’s play if they get a new stadium.
So far, Oakland’s leading @ 50%;San Jose @22%;Sacramento@19%; Fremont @5%; Other@2%
So we know most of the fans, most of the bay area sports writers, and most of the bay area and state politicians want the A’s in Oakland. I’m dealing with the 22%ers in here, but that’s okay, you guys are okay overall in my book.
http://www.csncalifornia.com/pages/athletics
jk-usa,
Just for the record, it’s only an online survey, not a scientific poll. It’s only weighing the opinions of those who actually visit the website. Just for the hell of it, I clicked “Oakland” and pushed the “lead” to 53% (hope that makes you happy).
@jk-usa—and how many have responded? Doesn’t tell you that—what we do know as facts are that in their current location in the city of Oakland the A’s attendance, corporate support and tv support sucks—-and there is no factual evidence to support that this will change regardless of the 41k facebookers who raise their hands for oakland but keep their dollars in their pockets—bring money to the table jk-usa–about 20+M a year to service the debt on a new ballpark and than you can puff out your chest and talk about keeping the team in oakland—$500k from 35 corporate sponsors is an absolute joke but def reflective of corporate support in Oakland
Oakland got the majority, and Sacramento was creeping up on San Jose… interesting. It’s just a general poll GoA’s and the majority of the participants want the A’s to stay. It is what it is.
@GoA’s–okay Mr. Negative, we’ll see how this all plays outs. SJ/SCC does have a big corporate base and that’s the only positive I see. So if they go to SJ, you’ll see signage everywhere and plush suites filled with big shots who don’t even watch the game, BUT baseball fans to fill the park day in and day out may not be a slam dunk after the 2nd year. Having to build a fan base basically from scratch is not that easy, especially in Giant land. Most east bay and valley fans will stay away.
jk–what fan base does Oakland have–they have the second lowest attendance in baseball and what has been documented over and over again is that this isn’t an anomaly–it is what it is…Oakland doesn’t have the fan base or corporate base to support MLB—otherwise where are those millionaires that you dream about…why haven’t they stepped forward to save the A’s in Oakland?
@ Ralph–if 10 people participate in a poll than 50% pro-Oakland doesn’t give much insight—and bottom line—the attendance and corporate base for Oakland is what it is….it’s horrible!
Well we don’t know how many participated do we? So Oakland doesn’t have a fan base? How is moving them 30 miles south going to increase that. If there are so many fans down there now why aren’t they attending the games now? Distance? They don’t like the Coliseum? People come from all around to see teams, especially in the bay area. I highly doubt the Giants would have as high attendance numbers if it was just people from San Francisco. That being said if the goal is for people from all around to come to a well located place I’m pulling out the centrally located card. Look at a map of the bay and figure out what city is at the bottom. Im really just wondering why this huge south bay fan base isn’t attending games, explain those reasons.
@Ralph–no we don’t know how many partiicpated in the poll that you are touting or what the profile of people who visit this site are and therefore for anyone to draw conclusions is a stretch. What we do know (facts) is that the last numbers I heard were that the A’s had approximately 7k season tix holders….7k???!!! That is less than the Sharks who have 10k and whose arena has less than half the seating capacity of the Coli—what we do know is that attendance for the A’s in there present location has never been stellar…nor has the corporate support….regardless of ownership…even back in the days when the Coli would have been considered a good venue and the team was more competitive. What we also know is that the both the gints and the A’s place a high value on the San Jose/Silicon Valley market…A’s want to move here….the gints are doing everything they can to block it including turning down TR buyouts estimated between $50-$100M. A few other facts we know….more Fortune 1000 companies are located in San Jose/Silicon Valley (Santa Clara County) than SF and Oakland combined. We also know for a fact that San Jose has the highest or second highest (depending upon source) per capita income in the US….Any wonder why the ’49ers want to be down here?
I don’t know where you get your “assumption” that fans currently attending A’s games are not from the South Bay. As a season tix holder of the A’s, living in the South Bay (btw…you a season tix holder?), it will take me minimum of one hour drive each way depending upon what has gone down on 880—sometimes longer. It would take me a little less time with more transit options to get to SF to watch the gints in a much nicer venue, in a much nicer location. I choose to go to the A’s because I am an A’s fan…..however, there are plenty of folks down here in SJ/Silicon Valley who have the disposable income and who are sports fans and who chose not to buy season tix to either because of the distance involved for both. These are the fans who have consistently sold out the Shark Tank for the past 15+years, and who would be willing to buy A’s season tix if they move to San Jose.
Don’t believe me……well Neukom/gints sure believe it which is once again why they are doing everything they can to block the move. That is a fact…..
Update on the CSN Poll:
I’m sure this is far from scientific, but it is kind of fun to follow. Oakland gaining more votes..lmao:
Oakland–53%;Fremont–4%;San Jose–20%;Sacramento–17%;Other–3%
http://www.csnbayarea.com/pages/athletics
@A’s observer- If you read my entire post you would see the numerous facts about San Jose that dwarf Oakland time and time again.
Look the A’s when they were in the World Series in the 1970s had walk up ticket sales on the day of the game. That is outrageous, the Sharks have 10k in season ticket holders all pretty much from the South Bay while the A’s have 7k? This is HOCKEY for crying out loud. This year the A’s even as a .500 team are near he bottom of the league in attendance.
Oakland is part of the SF-OAK-FREMONT metro area while San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara is considered a different metro area. Combined they are huge but lets face it San Jose is 40 miles from Oakland and 50 miles from SF therefore one could consider them different sub-markets as part of the larger Bay Area market.
San Jose is the #1 metro market in the Bay Area based on corporations and income per capita. That is why the Giants won’t take 50-100M and pay 20M less a year in revenue sharing. That is a shit load of money that would pay off their ballpark and give them the capability of signing another big name free agent long term. Why would they do this if San Jose wasn’t a better choice?
I NEVER go to A’s or Giants games because it is too far from San Jose to go consistently. I was a 20 year fan of both teams. Now I do not even root for the Giants despite the pennant chase because they are so “self righteous” to think they own my hometown of San Jose; a larger city than SF.
I would buy season tickets immediately if the A’s moved to San Jose on the spot. I have 5-6 friends who would be more than willing to split it as we all work in tech and have disposable income. Oakland and SF are too far to make that investment for South Bay fans.
People out in the South Bay have $$ and while they won’t help pay for it to be built are more than willing to spend their dough at the game time and time again. These people work in tech and make a shit load of $$.
There is a safe downtown location ready in a city of 1.2 million people (2.0 million plus in the county) with bars, places to eat, and hang out before and after the game. Can Oakland say that? No…they cannot.
I wonder why Lew Wolff will pay 461 million in San Jose to built the park plus pay the Giants off? It is because he knows he will make $$ in San Jose. He cannot do this in Oakland and if he could and make $$ why wouldn’t he?
Pro-Oakland fans make me laugh, it is like the old man going senile who gives away to the younger man who ready to take his place and thrive for years to come.
“Senile” does make sense seeing all the Pro-Oakland arguments in this forum.
The fact that you used an example from almost 40 years ago against Oakland is rediculous. Sounds outrageous yes, but how is that relevant to the present? Also your too far thing is exactly the reason the A’s will lose fans if they move south. Yes they will gain more south bay fans than before, but most likely lose a good amount of east bay fans. Everyone wants to talk about this corporate stuff, but what does that do for the average joe fan? On another note maybe if you did some research you would find that Oakland wants a park near Jack London Square which continues to develop into Oakland’s nicest destination, and has nice restaurants, bars, shops, etc. Not to mention a waterfront that the city wants to further develop with condos and parks. Oakland wants a ballpark in an area that can deliver those amenities. Jack London Square and the surrounding waterfront area can do that. If Oakland can get it done is another question. So check your facts before you accuse Oakland of not having that type of location. Pro-San Jose fans make me laugh, they are ignorant. By “they” i mostly mean Sid.
@Ralph–where are all these east bay fans you refer to—they don’t show up to the games and they don’t buy season tix—A’s rank second to last in both categories—and this isn’t a new phenomenon—its been that way for a long long time. If Oakland wants to build a ballpark there than do it—just don’t expect it to built with private funds…..all of these “east bay fans” you are referring to better be willing to pony up big time for PSL’s or expect the taxpayers of Oakland to build it—having a team is not an entitlement—its a private business that needs to be supported with “paying” customers…not just those who sign up to a facebook group…..its been 15 years and counting since the coli was ruined by the return of the Raiders….why hasn’t Oakland got its act together..and built this new ballpark that you feel they are so entitled to?
A’s fans bay wide aren’t attending as much as they could for multiple reasons. Fans are fet up with the ownership, fet up with the team performance, and being in an undesirable stadium in a bad area of town doesn’t help. It isn’t fair to judge this fanbase in this current situation. To be blunt it’s a clusterf*ck. A new stadium wherever in the bay with better circumstances would obviously bring in good attendance. I say bay wide because the bad attendance should not be solely reflected on the city of Oakland itself. iI’s a reflection of A’s fans in general, and I think it’s safe to say we are all fet up with one thing or another.
@Ralph- JLS is a “pipe dream” because Oakland would have to negotiate or move businesses in the area to build the ballpark…about 70 or so. 70!! That would take years to get these people to move or sell.
You are another Pro-Oak fan who doesn’t seem to understand the freeways go both ways. East Bay fans can drive down 880 or 680 to San Jose to watch a game. San Jose is more than just “pruneyards” it is a growing metro area with 1.2 million people in the City alone.
In order for anything to get done in Oakland the taxpayers will need to put in 150 million at least to get it done. In San Jose it can be privately financed 100% outside of land because of the immense corporate base in that area.
Cisco has already pleged 4 million a year for 20 years but the ballpark has to be in Silicon Valley. That right there tells you something.
Lew Wolff has the $$ to pay for 300-350 million of the stadium including the naming rights. He needs to find the last 100-160 million or so from the local corporate base in the form of luxury box sales and advertising.
This would be no problem as these corporations would be supporting a team in its backyard. The 49ers will provide the first example of this next year.
Also you write the fans are fed up with the ownership, team performance, and bad stadium. Last I checked even the A’s were damn good they still got middle of the pack attendance.
This year 2010 they are at .500 but bottom 3 in attendance. What does this tell you?
It tells you the East Bay is not viable and that if they want to keep their team they are going to have to pay $$ out of the taxpayers pockets. San Jose is the best place and you “butt hurt” East Bay fans get your lazy asses on the freeway and support the team in San Jose.
It is not like San Jose and Oakland are that far apart…
@Ralph- Put some facts in your statements for once.
Calling me ignorant is funny since I always provide facts. Your comments have none…Hence why you are “Senile” like the rest of the Pro-Oak fans.
Sid, the Victory Court site is the front runner in EVERYONE’s eyes including MLB and the Blue Ribbon Committee. Victory Court only has about 10 business that would have to be relocated with Peerless Coffee probably being one of the main components. They have already publicly even stating that for a fair price they would be more than willing to talk. I bet they would even be able to work out a deal with being the exclusive coffee distributor throughout the the entire ballpark and keep it local. Not to mention the fact that city of Oakland has recently just acquired the OFTC to help with the redevelopment of O29 and JLS. Once the southern end of Lake Merritt is complete it’s going to be one of the nicest areas in Oakland near the heart of Downtown, Uptown, and obviously the Lake Merritt area. Think about it….you’ll be able to take have dinner before the game at Lake Chalet and then take a gondola from the boathouse through the Lake Merritt Channel to the estuary which will be at the foot of Victory Court or vice versa. And if you really have the time you can make the “riverwalk” by foot after lunch which would probably take about 20 minutes or so. You relocate the business’ on Fallon St like Peerless Coffee, Cash & Carry, JC Cellars and China Noodle and turn them into restaurants, bars, cafes etc. and a ballpark right at Victory Court is a no-brainer. Lake Merritt BART and Amtrak are both only 4 blocks away and there’s plenty of parking nearby. My buddy lives in a new loft on the corner of 3rd and Oak and you can actually see the “field of dreams” from his living room window. I’ll be so frickin’ jealous of him if this ballpark ever gets built!!
.
Anyway, with all the being said….all us pro-Oaklanders want is an ownership group who is willing to sit down and let us show them the vision we have and how it can totally work. In the early part of this decade before LW took over as the “face” of the franchise we’ve been easily averaging about 35,000 fans (which was just about the 13th-15th out of 30 teams in the entire league in the same stadium and in the same location) in attendance during the Moneyball era. The fans will come and support the team when we start keeping our players and not trade them all away. And building a new ballpark in JLS will do nothing but increase attendance drastically for at least the first few years. After that it’ll be up to a good ownership group to keep fans coming back for more through good times and bad. We did it in the 80s so there’s no reason we can’t do it again with the right talent on the field in a beautiful new ballpark in a great location in OAKLAND. We just need an ownership group who’s willing to talk to Oakland now instead of waiting for a decision and we probably would’ve already had shovels in the ground a long time ago.
If and when they do decide to sell….I’ve heard from Oakland city Officials that they already have some local investors who are very much interested in purchasing the team working and working with Oakland to help revitalize the JLS/O29 area. By then LW/JF won’t care about selling to a local group of investory. They’ll make their money regardless.
If only all your comments provided facts. It still amazes me that you think just moving south 30 miles will make the attendance dramatically increase. A new stadium will do that, wherever it is. Look at San Francisco’s attendance before they moved into Pac Bell, it wasn’t that far off from the A’s attendance in the last decade. Should they have moved to San Jose? They got a new park in a better location within their city and attendance went up dramatically.. FACT. Oakland is capable of that. Most of you San Jose people are so delussional cause you just want a professional baseball team where you live. Moving the team farther away from it’s current city isn’t going to solve anything. It’s funny how your so against a city that has been the home to your favorite team. Do you cringe when you hear “Lets go Oakland!” ?
Hold on a sec… they have two way freeways now?!?! how was I not aware of this. ok ok sounds like a sweet deal now! You make a freeway joke yet you admitted yourself that going to an A’s or Giants game is too far to go consistently. Now imagine people who live even farther north or east who go to A’s games. Are they going to enjoy going twice as far as they had to before? But you don’t care about other peoples inconvenience as long as the team is close to you right?
RM,
I know you’re in the midst of the trip of a lifetime, but you really need to take the time to end this thread or cut some people off.
Yeah cut it off when OAKLANDathletics just made a really compelling statement on why Oakland would be good. This can’t be a biased blog with that possitive Oakland nonsense…
@OAKLANDathletics–nice info on the new yard in Oakland, which I think will happen. As for naming rights, how bout Clorox Field or Kaiser Yards? Or Pixar Park? Damn, Disney bought them out, so they’re not so local now. Safeway would be a good choice. Hdqtrs were in Oakland for years and now they’re over in Pleasanton, They outgrew their old brick building near JLS, and now they’re converted to cool lofts.
@TonyD–why cut it off? It’s new ballpark talk, not politics, and it’s nice to hear the other side for a change, other than all the rah rahs from the SB.
@All – If you guys want to keep grinding this out, I’m fine with it as long as there are no attacks. Not that it matters.
“Not that it matters.” Amen to that!
By the way R.M., did you see the new renders of Cisco Field over at Baseball San Jose? Just plain awesome! But of course, you probably saw those long ago. Enjoy the rest of you trip.
@Tony D. – No, I hadn’t seen those until tonight. Looks interesting, especially how that RF wall contours the same way Autumn St. does.
Like the concept of the right field wall—was wondering how they would manage to shoe horn it in—I had thought they might make these vertical luxury seating–similiar to what the ‘9ers are doing in their new stadium—-also like the intimacy of the 2 levels—ala Wrigley—would like to see a portion of Autumn become a tunnel so that they can connect the plaza behind the center field wall with the park on the other side of Autumn–
@OAKLANDathletics- You make some great points and you have to be the first Pro-Oak fan on this site I have seen who actually speaks with facts and detail unlike Ralph who obviously needs to a take his medication. Ha!
Lets throw out “Civic Pride” of our cities out the window for a minute here.
Lets compare sites:
San Jose has a developed downtown site ready with a certified EIR report finished and only needs to move 1 business not several as you pointed out earlier. Victory Court is too far up 880 where the speed limit is 55mph and traffic is bad almost all the time.
Since there so many businesses that need to be bought (You assume all of them will sell), the time it will take to get their buildings raised, the roads re-done, and major improvements would need to be made to the 880/Oak street exit. All this would take at least 5-7 years of redevelopment alone before it could be suitable for a ballpark. Also how is site convenient for anyone who does not take BART? Driving there would be a nightmare even for weekend games.
The Downtown San Jose site has 4 major freeways that pass nearby (880, 87,101,280) Light Rail, Caltrain with BART and the high speed rail coming right across the street from where the ballpark would be. San Jose could be ready to host opening day in April 2014 if the go ahead is given before the end of 2010.
Lew Wolff nor any other reasonably intelligent business man in the world would not pay 460 million dollars for a private development in Oakland which needs a public subsidy of 150 million due to a lack of a corporate base and an affluent population. His profit margin would be smaller in Oakland than San Jose just based on socioeconomic demographics of the cities.
He needed to use residential entitlements to local adjoining developments as part of the plan to make the Oakland/Fremont scenarios happen. But now with the recession those options are no longer there as the housing market tanked.
Lew Wolff knows he needs a Downtown site, big corporate base, and affluent fan base to build this 100% privately. Oakland can provide land all day but the owners of A’s will never pay for it 100% themselves for Victory Court or any other site in Oakland without public money.
San Jose is the better choice economically since this has to be 100% privately financed. If Oakland is willing to put in 150 million then I am sure Lew Wolff will do it in Oakland no arguments.
Don’t get me wrong I would love to see the A’s get a new park in Oakland and I am sorry Uptown did not work out as Jerry Brown was a “rat bastard” as Oakland Mayor.
In this bad economy from a factual standpoint San Jose would allow the A’s to thrive fiscally due to the vast corporate base and affluence of the City and it’s surrounding area. For example Cisco has agreed to a 4M/20 years naming rights deal if the park is built in Silicon Valley not Oakland.
You think the Giants would protect San Jose with their lives if they thought the A’s would suffer in San Jose?
This is how the “owners of sports teams” think and these guys have all the power for a reason. Lew Wolff has been defeated in Oakland 3 times and Fremont twice already. He has put in a great deal of effort hence his 227 page book about it.
Your facts are good but unless a ridiculously rich man who doesn’t care about losing money buys the A’s or the City of Oakland puts up $$ the A’s days in Oakland are coming to end. Whether its San Jose or somewhere else as fiscally it does not make sense for the owners of the A’s to stay in Oakland.
@Sid–just one clarification–Cisco signed on for 30 years at $4M a year with increases for inflation etc-here’s a portion of the article from 2006…yes…2006 when they inked the deal….
“Cisco will purchase the naming rights to the ballpark. This 30-year deal is valued at $4 million annually, with the potential for annual increases based on inflation. This naming rights agreement is transferable at any time. As a part of the naming rights deal, Cisco will be granted an undisclosed amount of guaranteed print, radio and television exposure. “
@Go A’s- Got ya. Even more $$ than I thought from that. That’s 120 million out of 461 million right there as you can use the naming rights contract to get money now from the bank. Cisco is a pretty large company so I am sure it will not be a problem.
So I suppose telling you about all the great things going on around the waterfront area where victory court would be isn’t a fact. Or the fact that the Giants had similar attendance numbers to Oakland before they got their new park. Sorry if I seem belligerent, but it’s hard not to be agressive on here when some people don’t care what point you make because as you said Sid “civic pride” comes into play which is understandable. I would of been more than willing to have a level headed debate if you didn’t accuse all pro-Oaklanders as being “Senile”. I am very interested in Oakland developments, and I know that the future for downtown Oakland and the waterfront is bright. A new ballpark on the waterfront would just be awesome in pushing current and future projects ahead to improve the city greatly.
The value of Cisco’s naming rights may actually go up since there is no sweetheart land deal involved as there was in Fremont.
Re: the new design – The new RF structure would only be possible if the power substation were moved, either to the southern end of the site or off site completely.
The $12 million cost to relocate AT&T’s work center is 40% of the cost to relocate Peerless Coffee, which is on a much smaller lot.
The welding supply store at the Diridon South site is another holdout, not just AT&T.
For all the talk from the pro-Oakland crowd about how Wolff is a greedy developer, it’s ironic that the biggest push for a JLS ballpark is coming from… wait for it… Oakland developers who stand to gain big time. The biggest political proponent? A planning commissioner. Except that it appears that Wolff/Fisher would foot the bill for the ballpark, and the Oakland developers would get all the benefits. Throw all this civic pride crap out the window. It is now, as it always has been, about $$$.
One more thing. The A’s averaged 35,000 fans/game once in their history, in 1990. Over the last decade they never peaked above 28,000. If they had gotten 35,000 more frequently, there would be no discussion over whether or not Oakland was viable.
I notice several things that are always glossed over in the pro-San Jose arguments. Doesn’t the city of San Jose also have its own fiscal challenges? I’d lilke to see some objective analysis of each cities’ respective economic states. I know Oakland has myriad economic issues but I honestly believe it does have a bright future and a new ballpark could be a catalyst and a beneficiary.
Doesn’t Oakland have some of the same amenities – and more – as San Jose (IE. proximity to transit)?
@68A’sfans–didn’t you know that San Jose is the bestset place on earth for any new sports franchise? It’s a no-brainer, a slamdunk, a done deal, that you can only make tons of money and get sellouts for the next 50 years-guaranteed. They have the highest income, the lowest crime, the most beautiful, wonderful people of any city in the US, if not the world!! The city is financially sound more than any other city on earth, traffic problems won’t exist,and the neighborhood around a new a ballpark will just love all the crowds walking through their bushes and pissing on their lawns.
Sounds amazing.
@Ralph–and the state-of-the-art park Cisco and Lew Wolff have lined up for San Jose would be 2nd to none. No charm but hi-tech blandness to the hilt. That’s what the “fans” in Silicon Valley will demand.
Wi-Fi in the stadium for a nominal fee of $40, so you can surf all you want and maybe look up and watch a pitch or two thrown, but you’re an important person and need to trade stocks, blog, twitter, view porn or whatever.
You can also have your own personal flatscreen in front of you to watch the game at another nominal fee of $10/inning. Just slide credit card to activate. And when you order food, just hit your touchscreen flatpanel and an iRobot will personally deliver your food and drink to your seat. Also, for an added fee of $60, the i Robot will give you neck massages between innings.
No need to even pay minimum wages to stadium employees, when an iRobot can do it cheaper in the long run, and they won’t bitch about how lousy they’re being paid and treated.
Yeah, this place is going to be something else if they land the A’s.
@jk-usa – I’ve taken my iPad to A’s games several times without it affecting my ability to pay attention to the game. I’ve brought it everywhere on my trip and so far everyone who has reacted has been curious or supportive, not derisive. Out of a 3 hour baseball game, the ball is in play roughly 10 minutes. Step off with your luddite crap. You do realize that in Oakland the tech factor will be upped significantly there as well, right? This stuff about people from San Jose and Oakland being so different is utter BS. The A’s are what bind us, what we have in common. That’s all that matters. For you to spew your reverse elitist garbage is the height of hypocrisy.
Here’s a riddle for you, genius. A few weeks ago I scored an entire game using an iPad app. Three seats down from me was an elderly gentleman scoring in a run-of-the-mill scorebook. What’s the difference there?
@jk-usa-The sad part is that isn’t to far from being possible… I remember seeing something about touchpad monitors or something for every seat. Talk about over kill… If you want that type of technology while watching a baseball game in person fiddle with your iPhone or just stay home. Although your comments were full of sarcasm and humor it seems very plausible that if a park was built in Silicon Valley it could well be full of unnecessary technology. Technology is great, but not if it’s distracting the live action.
Having a screen for every seat does seem like too much technology for a baseball stadium, which is why I mentioned the iPhone or in your cause the pad. In this day in age a good amount of us have stuff like that at our disposal, so really it just wouldnt be necesarry to put screens like that in. You are also right about the tech factor, I think it would apply in an Oakland park aswell if Wolff and Cisco were involved. At least that’s how Cisco Field in Fremont was advertised as: to be the most technologically oriented stadium ever. It was even featured on a show about stadiums on the history channel as having that goal. I would fear the overkill, but as an Oakland supporter it is the least of my worries at this moment.
That vision, which was circa 2006, is already obsolete. By the time a new ballpark is built, Cisco won’t have to furnish any hardware at the seat, it’ll be up to the fan to bring whatever tech they want into the park and Cisco will support it through the network infrastructure. That way it’s more of an “opt-in” scenario. No big deal.
@ML-okay SUPER genius, I love riddles.
The difference in scoring a game with a run-of-a-mill scorebook over an iPad is:
1) Spilling beer or soda adds character to your scorecard, and it won’t cost you $600 if it’s ruined.
2)Dropping a scorecard on concrete is no big deal. Dropping an iPad, it can be.
3)Day game glare not a problem when writing on paper.
4)Endless battery life for a scorecard.
5)There’s nothing like pencil/pen to paper.
6)Old school scoring is a lost art, but is oh so cool.
@jk-usa – EH! The differences you cite are meaningless.
1. Honestly, who spills stuff on their scorecard anymore? This isn’t beer league. You have cupholders at the seat, use ’em.
2. A drop of 18 inches is not a problem for the iPad as long as it’s in a case (which it usually is).
3. Not a problem at day games this year at the bleachers, just crank the brightness up.
4. iPads last 10+ hours. Not even a Yankees-Red Sox game lasts that long.
5. There’s nothing like not having to use an eraser to correct a mistake.
6. Scoring via an app is quite cool as well.
No, the key difference is that even though it’s a lost art, I’m more likely to be able to teach a kid to score via the iPad than via a scorebook. And that’s what it’s all about. The kids.
@ML–I don’t have an iPad and don’t want an iPad. Doesn’t seem practical. I still get my newspaper delivered–I just finished reading it. I love reading books, mags and papers and hate reading much more than a few lines online. It just isn’t the same. Technology is good overall, but I don’t let it run my life. I leave all that stuff home and just enjoy the game. No smart phone for me, just an old flip phone that I don’t use that much. I still have a land-line because it feels and sounds better. I was a bowler back in the day and loved keeping score on paper or the plastic sheets that projected it above in my leagues. Then in the mid 80’s all the automatic scoring took over and I hated it. Most kids bowling now don’t even know how they got the score they got. All the bowling alleys that have closed in the bay area is sad. There was so many, big and small. The last one in Hayward closed a few years ago, and my league had to regroup and had to go to Fremont. I’m done with it for now.
@jk-usa and Ralph- Technology is just a way to get “casual” fans into the seats which every team needs in order to stay profitable.
Therefore it is a great idea to have as much technology in a ballpark as possible. With a new place (Oakland or San Jose) the casual fan will show more often like in the Giants case. Which is huge as right now only the “die hard fans” come and watch the A’s.
As much as we all rip on the “casual fan” they are needed to sustain a team for the long run as the Giants have shown over 10 years since ATT Park was opened.
My last point if Oakland was truly “viable” in the eyes of MLB than why hasn’t it been announced?
Lew Wolff and MLB would be working on it right now with the City of Oakland to get this done.
Why wait? Victory Ct. and JLS are in the A’s current territory; to wait 16-20 months to announce it? Sorry, that makes zero sense and how can anyone refute this point?
Remember when BS when asked by a reporter at the All-Star game last month about his committee going beyond their initial task of working with Oakland on a new stadium he responded “I would say they are all wrong”. The MLB committee was sent on a “fact finding” mission and that is how far their works goes.
The reason why it is taking so long is because MLB is going to send the A’s to San Jose and they need to be detailed as possible to get the votes needed at the owners meeting in the winter hence why BS offered to San Jose to pay for a March election.
BS is making sure the Giants have zero counter arguments because of how thorough his committee was in 20 months and that there is zero doubt to the other owners that San Jose is the only way.
Wolff already scoped every site Oakland has come up with recently to the MLB committee and if he did not they would visit it and get it done. His 227 page book details this for every site he considered in Alameda County….This includes Victory Court, JLS, Uptown, Pleasanton, and Coliseum North.
Sorry guys but the evidence shows its San Jose or bust…
Sid, is this 227 book going to be viewable by the public? If the A’s leave Oakland I at least want to hear his detailed analysis on why. The only details I have heard is “we exhausted our options in Oakland.”
I’m sorry but people that bring Ipads to games are tools. Leave the Ipad at home and interact with your friends and other fans. Baseball should be about interacting with your friends and family and the game itself. Its about cold beer and ice cream, warm weather and hot dogs, and cheering your hero’s. Leave technology at home once in a while and enjoy life.
@A’sobserver – I think you just called me tool. I have an iPad and I bring it to games. You just called such people tools. All right. I’ll refrain from getting into a name calling contest, even though us tools are supposed to be good at namecalling. Nice.
@A’sObserver Why don’t you go outside and interact with some friends and coworkers instead of posting on a blog to a bunch of virtual friends? Enjoy life and the company of live people for goodness sake!
@Sid and Ralph–I would love to see that 227 page report Uncle Lew has. Probably a bunch of doodling, tic-tac-toe games and San Jose A’s written scribbled in every corner.
@ML–you’re no tool, and I like I said before , I appreciate the work you do on here. For your reporting on your roadtrip, all your gadgets were necessary I guess, but a bunch of us woukld leave all that stuff home the rest of the time. The only high tech thing I would bring for years was my Walkman to listen to the pitch by pitch on the radio. Since Bill King died, it just hasn’t been the same, and I bring the radio less and less. Ken and Vince are good, but Bill was the best. How many announcers could do all 3 major sports, and as good as he?He has championships from all 3 too. I cherish his bobble-head doll I have.My other favorite A’ memorabilia piece is a vinyl record from 1972 called Finley’s Hero’s, highlighting the A’s 1972 season, playoffs and WS win over Cincy. Narrated by the ultimate homer Monte Moore.
@jk-usa – I’ve seen parts of Lew’s packet. It’s not a report, it’s a bunch of compiled memos, emails, and other documents. It does not paint Oakland in a pretty light. MLB will not suddenly brush that stuff aside when making it’s judgement.
Not that anyone really cares about what I think, but here are the pro/con arguments going on in the head of this “lean SJ” fan (presented in order of importance):
.
Oakland
Pros
1) Preserve/expand existing fanbase
2) Centrally located with transit in place
3) Preserve 40 years history in the Oakland
4) Proximity of Oakland ballpark to my work (I live equidistant between Oak and SJ)
Cons
1) Ballpark timetable
2) History of poor attendance (I can’t believe this is still debated)
3) Oakland’s legendary political process
4) Proximity to Giants ballpark
.
San Jose
Pros
1) Ballpark timetable
2) Potential for enormous corporate support
3) Better baseball weather
4) Future transit hub
Cons
1) Shifting of existing fanbase
2) Name change from Oakland to SJ
3) 40 year of history in the bay not ruined, but disrupted
4) Public transportation from north of SJ a challenge (currently)
.
And if I were to rank all these (some were similar for both cities so I combined them):
1) Ballpark timetable – pro SJ
2) Preserve/expand existing fanbase – pro Oak
3) History of poor attendance in Oakland – pro SJ
4) Oakland’s legendary political process – pro SJ
5) Potential for enormous corporate support – pro SJ
6) Centrally located with transit in place – pro Oak
7) Preserve 40 years history in the Oakland – pro Oak
8) Proximity to Giants ballpark – pro-SJ
9) Better baseball weather – pro SJ
10) Name change from Oakland to SJ – pro Oak
11) Proximity of Oakland ballpark to my work – pro Oak
.
If I were to score these value, with the highest ranked issue given 11 points and the lowest ranked issue ranked 1 point, my scorecard would read:
SJ – 42 points, Oakland – 24 points.
Kind of a fun exercise I did for my own benefit, but I thought I would share with the blog.
what evidence can you guys present that san jose will fix the attendance “issue”
The Giants have had attendance issues too before AT&T was built. I recall the A’s beating them many years in a row. When the A’s were champs in the 70’s, they averaged around a mill a year, which sounds bad, but that was the league avg too. Also have to factor in 8-9 double headers a year too, so it was more like 15k a game, not 12k a game.
@gojohn–like your thought process and exercise—looking into the future another pro-SJ component would be the transit hub at Diridon (assuming it happens)—this would make SJ a 45 minute jaunt in from the Central Valley—-less than what it takes me to get to Oakland or SF from the SJ area today–
@jk/AO–prior to the return of the Raiders in 95 the Coli was considered to be one of the better ballparks in all of baseball—I would say it would easily have been in the T10—while Candlestick was at the very bottom—even during this time when they had a pretty damn good ballpark the A’s attendance sucked—once again a fact—
San Jose would fix the attendance problem easily as you will see:
1. Central and “safe” downtown location. Oakland is not “safe” in any sense of the word thus keeping away families and a lot of casual fans. People in San Jose after or before a game can walk to a bar or a place to eat/drink easily and these establishments are already in place for the Sharks. Oakland does not have a “downtown location” similar to this.
2. Look at the Sharks attendance history. Even when they were bad they still easily sold out and right now get 17k-18k per game. The A’s in Oakland get the same attendance per game and this is HOCKEY we are talking about people.
3. Summer nights in San Jose are perfect for baseball (60-70 degrees between 7pm and 10pm) while Oakland like SF is cold and usually under 60 degrees right after game time starts.
4. Corporate support would be much higher and with so much industry nearby people would come in after work to catch a game with company tickets or their own season tickets.
5. San Jose is 1.1 million people with 2+ million in the County who have $$ to spend as that is where all the good jobs are. While Oakland has 400k in population in a 2.5-3.0 million person market (Alameda + Contra Costa) but few people who have $$ to spend in disposable income. Plus most people in affluent Contra Costa County stay away from Oakland for obvious reasons.
Also the I am sure the 227 page memoir that Lew Wolff wrote will be made public once all of the dust settles on this. 227 pages is a lot and that is something that cannot be dismissed as it shows “effort”.
@Sid – For the last time, it is not a memoir. It’s a bunch of related documents. The only things from the A’s are info requests to gov’t.
@ML- A memoir can be by definition:
“The published record of the proceedings of a group or organization, as of a learned society.” While Lew Wolff’s 227 pages is not published but it is a record of proceedings of a group or organization (A’s).
Who knows what is “exactly” in there but you are correct I could have used a more “proper wording” for it. Something like “collection of documents” or something of the nature.
@Sid – You’re getting into semantics? We know full well what you’re saying and it’s wrong. Also, stop with the crime garbage. I’ve already deleted one inflammatory comment from you. An Oakland ballpark would be built in the relatively safe JLS area, not East Oakland.
@Sid Please stop with the “Oakland is not safe” BS. No one is proposing building the park in East Oakland. The proposed Oakland sites are in areas that are safer than many areas of San Jose.
@Sid–I’ve seen 100’s of events at the Coliseum complex in the last 40 years, from A’s, Raiders, and Warrior games to concerts, circuses and car shows, and I haven’t once been a victim of any crime. Sure, the area is much to be desired and is lower income, but it’s convenience is one of the best in the country. I’ve parked my car on the street and haven’t had one break-in. I wish there was more stuff around there to do before and after the game, but a new park near downtown will remedy that. I wish the Coli area had better eateries besides fast food, but the ballpark make up for that inside. Sam’s Hof Brau was decent for many years. Gone now. Maybe Harry’s in San Leandro would be a nice fit over there. Malibu Grand Prix had a good run for many years but that’s gone too, along with Hungry Hunter. Well, you got Wing Stop and In and Out across the freeway. And they tore the Domes down about 10 years ago. I remember seeing the Exorcist there back in 1973. It played there forever back when it was a single dome. I support what few business they have over there over the years, being raised close by in Alameda and now in Hayward.
@ML–thank you!!!
@Sid –Actually A’s fans of Contra Costa County don’t “stay away for obvious reasons”. If your an A’s fan your most likely defending the Coliseum for it’s convenience. People love the convenience of BART, and how you can arrive right at the Coliseum. I have an uncle from FLorida and he couldn’t even believe BART did that. Im from Contra Costa so I get see plenty of fans get on and crowd the trains. By the time you get to MacArthur to transfer everyone rushes on to the next train because there are so many fans gathered at that point you have to race for a seat. But I guess out of the nearly 3 million population in Alameda and Contra Costa Counties only few have the money to buy a baseball ticket… what a moron. In your argument your not even heping San Jose. Your saying that your going to have to be rather wealthy to attend a game. If you really think Alameda and CC county are poor and nobody can really afford a ticket, why would they want to go all the way to San Jose? Well then again the nearly 3 million bums in these counties can hop on train cars with their bindles to get to a game.
@ML- The last comment is no where near the worst thing I have seen on this website. Sorry dude if you thought that was offensive it was a joke. You do a good job of running this site. Keep it up.
@Ralph- All I am saying is Alameda County is poor in general compared to Santa Clara County and you can see that based on 3 things: Housing prices, Crime, and local businesses. Contra Costa is real nice housing and crime wise but at end of the day where is the fan support from these areas? Oakland Coliseum is so centrally located but no one goes, even with BART right there as you point out. While the Sharks sell out all day for hockey with no BART just light rail within the county for I say it again…Hockey.
@jk-usa- To extreme of an example dude. Think of it this way, if Oakland is the 3rd unsafest city in the US and that is public information, in general why would anyone not from Oakland think “Its safe to be there, lets take the wife and kids to a game”? You know that perhaps there are parts of Oakland that are nice such as JLS but the general person doesn’t know that. Also JLS will never happen as there were zoning issues in that area and that is why their plan got shot down. I have been to several Warriors and A’s games over the years and you drive 1 block down the street and you see why it is the 3rd unsafest city in the US. Victory Court isn’t bad but isn’t great either. People do not want to “hang out” or walk around in cities that have bad crime. It just keeps people away in general and that will kill any team.
Also read these two articles guys, some interesting stuff from the A’s owners:
One is from a interview with Lew Wolff
http://www.athleticsnation.com/2009/5/6/866487/oakland-as-owner-lewis-wolff
This from Guy Saperstein (Part A’s owner and long time East Bay resident) to Barbara Boxer:
http://oaklandfocus.blogspot.com/2009/05/oakland-as-owner-guy-sapersteins-letter.html
I bring these two up because they bring some more facts into play about the ownership which every Pro-Oak fans seems to despise.
Zennie Abraham responds this stating that Guy is wrong but falls short as he states public funding is needed in Oakland which we all know will never happen.
@Sid–Wolff’s Fremont plan was the dumbest idea ever. It blew up in his face and he lost 90 mill…Real smart business man. He wanted a big and cheap site for his pipedream village but Oak didn’t have the 100+ acres he needed, but they do have a nice 15 acre slot like SJ does, but now it won’t work in Oak? Huh? He never had his heart set on Oak. He’s a SB guy all the way. He should just stay in the SB, never drive up north ever again and retire, and sell the team to someone who cares.
jk–your the ultimate victim–regardless of what ML tells you about the “book” being less than flattering about Oakland’s effort you continue to blame LW for all that ails Oakland—a MLB is not an entitlement..its a private business—that needs to make money to stay in business—-
@jk-usa
Wolff and Saperstein write about the short falls of Oakland’s city officials as the main reasons why it never got done in Oakland. It is sad to see such two different ownership groups (Schott and Hoffman as the other) get stopped over and over again. Even Zennie Abraham agreed with Saperstein that the County-Coliseum Authority is terrible as they even worked behind his back when tried to bring Oakland a Super Bowl.
Also they had a 38 million dollar publicly funded initiative to remodel the Coliseum for baseball only hence bring the seats closer to the field and remodel the place in general but the same Authority decided to pull that off the table and put up Mt. Davis to bring the Raiders back. Wow.
Wolff even says he is willing to “sit down” with anyone and explain why the sites in Oakland are not viable if you give him a chance. He states that here little intricacies that you cannot see like in “site X there is a sewer line that cannot be moved there are zoning issues”.
Wolff since 2003 has been shot down at least 5-6 Oakland sites and 2 Fremont sites. Even Pro-Oak fans should feel some sympathy for all his effort. JLS/Uptown would have been amazing. But Downtown San Jose is still in the Bay Area guys. It could be worse.
Unless it is physical harm to themselves or their families I feel no sympathy towards Lew Wolff or John Fisher. They are millionaires who are only looking out for themselves. If things don’t go their way big deal and im not gonna lose sleep over it. Owners are replaceable and are only here for a short while. Their goals will put no money in my pocket nor will they make my life better. Wherever the A’s may play makes no difference to me, but in this situation think for yourselves, not the affairs of people that could care less about you.
@A’s Observer- It is a business at the end of the day. Everything done in the world of business must be amicable to both parties and profitable or what is the point?
Owners are hard to find as only 1/4 of a 1% of the US population can afford a team in general. You have to respect their point of views as they are ultimately responsible for everything that goes on with the team.
We as fans must respect the business side and while we have no obligation to “feel sorry” for Lew Wolff or John Fisher we must respect their points of view. Imagine if you owned a professional sports franchise? How would you do business? Could you even fathom it?
Sports owners do all fans a huge favor by running these teams so we can have “civic pride” by rooting for our local teams and having fun. That right there is priceless.
@Sid–I know W&F are going to cover most of the stadium costs wherever the A’s wind up, but that hasn’t been the case in the past where taxpayers have footed a huge % of the owners Taj Mahal’s, making the owners even richer, driving up the players salaries even higher and increasing the value of the team when they sell. Read Field of Schemes for a real eye-opener on the subject.
A’s owner spends on art, not ballplayers….
.
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20100818/NEWS/100819484?p=all&tc=ar
@OAKLANDathletics – Cohn’s article is one of the most intellectually lazy things he has ever written. His expert source on all things art? His wife. On business of baseball matters? No one. I’m embarrassed for him that he wrote it, it’s that bad.
@OAKLANDathletics–nice piece. Lowell Cohn’s great. I remember him from his days at the Chron. Outside of Mark Purdy of the Mercury, the baseball writers in the bay area do not like this ownership.
I wish the owners were true baseball lovers, instead of greedy businessmen. I’m still hoping for a miracle that Piccinini/Dolich/R.Jackson or similar type group with a passion for baseball and community would save this team and keep them in Oakland. Big Bad Wolff and gazillionaire Fisher literally make me sick.
Via Jane Lee’s blog:
(Las Vegas) Mayor: American League baseball team looking at Las Vegas.
hummmmm….wonder which AL team it is….good for LW—guess Oakland is going to have to come up with a financial deal that competes with Vegas building a ballpark….Boxer thinks he’ll be a hero in Oakland with his efforts to save the A’s—–ultimately he could be responsible for sending them out of the Bay Area…..amazing how Oakland is playing right into the gints hand—
Well it’s either the A’s or the Rays. I have a hard time believing MLB will let a team move to Vegas — gambling central– considering the all-time hit leader still isn’t in the HOF due to gambling problems. But who knows?
@A’s Fan – A year or two ago, Goodman said that he wised up, that he wouldn’t again be used by MLB and its teams to get better deals from other cities. Looks like he’s fallen for the bait yet again.