It’s a bargain, I swear

You know what I like the most about Friday’s Oakland press conference? They snuck in a very, very important detail and no one noticed.

Sometime after we heard that the Victory Court EIR hadn’t begun (which was verified, yes) a bit of info started floating around the interwebs about Oakland offering and presenting to MLB a “$250 million package” for the Victory Court site. There was no sense as to the substance of that package. Some questions I had about it:

  • Would it be all of the land up to Oak Street?
  • Would it include all infrastructure (on/off-ramps, parking, pedestrian improvements)?
  • Would it provide some money for construction?
  • Would it require redevelopment-based or tax increment financing?

The answers to those from what I gather:

  • Yes
  • Yes
  • No
  • Yes

When Victory Court was initially presented last December, Oakland officials steered far away from any kind of guess as to the cost of preparing the site, especially land acquisitions. I made a WAG of $100 million just for the land and some indeterminate amount of infrastructure. Now we know that the price just to get Victory Court ready for the A’s by November 2014 is $250,000,000. I don’t know about you, but to me that’s an absolutely staggering amount for 14 acres and infrastructure. A ballpark site should never cost that much. Even if redevelopment were to continue as-is into the distant future, it’s difficult to conceive of any amount of new, growth-based economic activity happening around Victory Court that could come close to paying off the cost of acquiring the site. Keep that price tag in mind when considering the following list of stadium site costs (note – does not break down public vs. private shares and does not include stadium construction cost):

  • Diridon: $50-70 million, plus $25-30 million in infrastructure
  • China Basin: Final cost $87 million, including land and infrastructure
  • Atlantic Yards (Brooklyn Nets): $100 million
  • New Yankee Stadium: $300 million including garages (considered grossly inflated)
  • Miami/Orange Bowl: $60 million including garages
  • Target Field: $90 million including infrastructure

Sense a pattern? Around $100 million is the prevailing rate. Yet Victory Court is 2.5 times that amount, approaching the astronomical figure for the eternal ripoff that is New Yankee Stadium. Why didn’t anyone pay attention to the cost of Victory Court? Simple. Oakland presented another site with an even more outlandish vision, Coliseum City. Of course, the price will also be more outlandish, but no one’s talking about that. And with that presentation, they gave a handful of people that whiff of hope a dog-and-pony shows brings, even though there’s very little substance to it.

87 thoughts on “It’s a bargain, I swear

  1. Honestly, i noticed but didn’t care because I figure it is moot.

  2. Wow so it really will cost 250 million to get Victory Court ballpark ready?! Guess that rules out the city of Oakland providing any construction money at EITHER site (which to my mind is a must if Oakland hopes to lure any of their teams into providing at least some private money for a ballpark/stadium/arena).

  3. Same old, same old. Oakland provides infrastructure and land using redevelopment money it won’t have and then expects the A’s to pay for the stadium. OK.

  4. By the way RM, love how the “Calendar” has been simplified with just January owners meeting now showing.

  5. Does the $250M include additional net new parking? Because there is insufficient parking assets available now. If it is the old VC plan, it involves decking the Laney College lots. If so, where is the interim parking for Laney College? Maybe it involves demolishing the Kaiser Convention Center that the Agency bought from the City for $20M.

    Coliseum City would require even more subsidy for structured parking to make the land available for all the joint development. Not to mention that there is no market for any of the planned development. Maybe they put it out there to confuse the public into thinking there is value there to pay off all the existing debts? Which are substantial? But I don’t have that number, do you?

  6. Oakland’s insistence that team owners pay for the stadium when this would not be profitable in Oakland and would probably result in massive losses is why Oakland’s days as an MLB city are numbered.

  7. same old, same old, around here … see you guys at the Coliseum!

  8. ML, looks like there was an interesting tidbit in the new NFL Resolution G-4, the successor to the old G-3 loans. Specifically:

    “Up to $250 million for stadium renovation;”

    While Coliseum City as a new project would only be able to draw potentially 200 million (assuming the NFL doesn’t cut off the Bay Area entirely after the Niners stadium as had been suggested during the CBA), renovating the existing Coliseum as had been suggested by yourself and others might suddenly seem a more viable alternative. The project would undoubtedly be cheaper overall since you could remove the A’s ballpark (since under this scenario the A’s would have to be gone to either SJ or VC anyway) and for the stadium you’d only need to rebuild a little over half the existing Coliseum. Might be something for Oakland to consider since they do have half a modern NFL stadium standing largely unused in the A’s outfield. Now they just need the other half.

  9. really is even the mt davis side of the football stadium sub standard? the luxury boxes from all i hear are small and the seats at the very top are some of the worst seats in all of sports as their way too steep and the football players look like ants from that high up.

    imo if there was ever a new football stadium built for the raiders in oakland which i doubt it’ll ever happen, they’re gonna want a whole new structure.

  10. Raiders have to know a new $1 billion stadium in Oakland is never going to happen. They probably don’t want to share one in Santa Clara with the 49ers, either. They’ll probably end up back in LA – with the team sold to interests in SoCal.

  11. I don’t know about that. The suites in Mt. Davis seemed pretty posh to me last time I visited them. And having the East Side club there for them as well doesn’t hurt. As for the high up seats, most NFL stadium upper decks are way up there these days due to levels upon levels of suites (similar to Mt Davis). Plus if it gets the Raiders what they claim to want, a “new” stadium in Oakland would they really complain? I mean hell, between a 250 million infusion from the G4 loan and MAYBE 250 million in redev money from Oakland (assuming their pie in the sky dream that RDA isn’t dead happens), they’d have nearly 500 million to build half a stadium. Could just be enough to make it happen with a modest private contribution.

    But if they do go to LA has anyone seen the new renderings of Farmers Field? Gone is the airplane hanger design and in it’s place is a design that kind of reminds me of the main terminal at Dullas International Airport (which is a good thing).

  12. @David,
    Your still not convinced of REALITY even after the developments of the past week? Didn’t you say yourself “Victory Court is alive”? If the answer to the question is “no,” then I don’t know what to tell yah.

  13. @Dan – I’ve been reading the resolution. It’s long and I think you’ve misread it slightly. The resolution outlines how much the NFL will loan it’ll give based on two things: A) Cost of project, and B) Amount of “Private Contribution”. For the amount you described, the NFL would provide half or less, matching whatever the team came up with. That might be a problem for the Raiders, who are not flush with cash and are in a complicated situation after Mr. Davis’ passing.

  14. Ah. My bad. Didn’t see the part about needing a matching cash infusion. Nevermind. Raiders are moving to LA or Santa Clara.

  15. The first image to pop up on the official Farmers Field website (www.farmersfield.com) is clearly a Raider’s player. (Marcus Allen, maybe) Should we read anything into that?

  16. I think Mt. Davis is par for the course for upper deck heights and distances. Probably lower than Denver or New England, just to name a couple that look REALLY high.

    Those stadiums, however, do not have an upper deck with much lower stands sitting across the field. So I think the crappiness of those seats gets magnified by that psychological effect.

    I can’t speak for the suites, although up to date in ’96 is probably not up to date now.

  17. Now that I think on it, maybe Marcus Allen never played in Oakland- if so, using him to promote football in LA makes sense.

  18. The Allen image is a “Verizon Training Ground” promo they’re having at LA Live, with Allen, Ronnie Lott, Junior Seau, and Tim Brown that the Farmers Field site is shilling for. So the answer to the question of whether we should read anything into that is I don’t know.

  19. And no, he didn’t ever play in Oakland.

  20. Those are all west coast football stars with LA connections. I wouldn’t read too much into it.

  21. Three of whom happened to play for the Raiders: Allen, Lott, Brown.

  22. Just a coincidence. Remember the Raiders still have a huge presence in LA (arguably larger than their bay area presence.)

  23. @pjk USC and familiar west coast faces from a team that’s still popular there.

  24. I’ve noticed a lot of people on here are seemingly pushing for the Raiders to leave or are voicing their opinion as if it’s fact. Just a case of 49er fan wishful thinking?

  25. I am a 49er fan. I hope the Raiders stay in Oakland, or absent a real option, join the 49ers in Santa Clara.

  26. eb, can’t speak for everyone else but it’s not being a Niners fan (I’m actually a Pats fan). For me it’s just plain Raider hate. Never wanted the Raiders back here in 95 and blame them in part for the A’s current dire situation. No Raiders, no Oakland bending over and taking it up the ass to rebuild the Coliseum for them (at the A’s expense), and as a result there would exist a much better relationship between the city and the A’s today.

    And on top of that the Raiders are a part of the image problem that has as a whole. They and their fans are seen as a bunch of thugs and punks by the rest of the country (some will argue unfairly but I’d argue fairly based on my experiences at the Coliseum during football season), and unfortunately they drag the entire Oakland name through the mud with them. Can’t count the number of times I’ve said I’m an A’s fan to someone only to have people come back with stupid jokes about how I must be a punk, thug or otherwise dangerous and it invariably flows into the follow up response that I’m not a Raiders fan which always perplexes them. And it all started a few years after they came crawling back into town…

    The sooner the Raiders go back to LA the better.

  27. Willingham signed with Twins – 3 years $21M. Wow, we could have kept him for that scratch, but …..Twins New Ballpark….A’s Stadium situation….blah, blah, blah….29 Homers and 98 RBI – poof, gone. In three years from now Willingham is begging to re-sign with the A’s. San Jose weather, new ball park, new energy, Pebble Beach.

  28. @ Rayburn’s Son – Pebble Beach?

  29. @Dan I can tell you as an Oaklander, people here feel a deep connection with the Raiders. I think that negative stereotype is being combated by the team, hence all of the shots of kids at the game during telecasts. Raider games are a great experience, really the electricity is amazing. Also, with Al gone I think the franchise will become more media friendly. I can understand your issue with the A’s stadium, but I blame the Oakland officials more than the team itself. Otherwise, I just don’t get your level of hate. I really dislike the 49ers, your Pats, SF Giants, etc. but I would never wish for a team to abandon their fans because of my problems with the team.

  30. @ Columbo
    Ask any SJ Shark or visiting hockey player (who plays golf) where they go on a day off – Pebble Beach. Ask any Major League player (who plays golf) that has a day off in the Bay Area where they go – Pebble Beach. It’s one of the top 3 golf courses in the WORLD and guys take advantage of it being within a 1.5 drive. In fact, I remember when Darryl Evans was playing for the Detroit Tigers he rented 4 large vans and took the entire Tigers team to Pebble Beach to play (on a day off). I happened to be at Pebble that day and saw them. As a golfer it’s one of those courses you have to play along with Augusta and St. Andrews. Just saying….

  31. @ Rayburn’s Son – Is SJ now claiming the Santa Cruz and Monterey areas to include in their justification for population size? I believe it’s an hour and 1/2 drive from Diridon to Pebble, no? If a park was built in Oakland it might take Willingham an additional 30-40 minutes to get to Pebble. What is the point of Pebble Beach? Is it golf? If so, I can name dozens of golf courses in the east bay that could rival PB in slope and difficulty.

  32. @ Rayburn’s Son – We must have typed at the same time. Now I know what you were saying. So an SJ ballpark adds the appeal of being 30-40 minutes closer to a world-class golf course?

  33. Dan said, “Can’t count the number of times I’ve said I’m an A’s fan to someone only to have people come back with stupid jokes about how I must be a punk, thug or otherwise dangerous and it invariably flows into the follow up response that I’m not a Raiders fan which always perplexes them.”

    yup!

  34. @Dan- You are incorrect LA has more Raiders fans than the Bay Area. Not even close. You may get 4,000 fans who travel up from LA when the team is winning. When it is not perhaps 500. You are a Pats fan for some odd reason….I hope your from Boston or it would seem like your a real front runner around here.

    The East Bay is the heart and soul of their fan base and abandoning them again would be a death blow to the Raiders fan base here that they have worked so hard to re-kindle.

    The Raiders in LA were only there for 13 years and they did not get fans at all. You overestimate their fan base down there big time. With the Raiders back in Oakland for now 16 years and counting, a whole generation has been wiped out in So Cal.

    It comes down to if Mark Davis wants to sell the team or not. If he wants to sell his family’s share then they will go to LA because he will get more bang for buck as he can retain minority ownership and that will skyrocket in value IF the team moves into a new stadium out there….Big IF though.

    If he wants to keep the team in the family he has no choice to move to Santa Clara and try to work with Oakland in the meanwhile to get a stadium.

    Mark Davis grew up in Piedmont and is from the Bay Area…..my bet is an announcement will be made after the owners meetings this week about the 49ers stadium that the Raiders have come to an agreement with the 49ers to share SC.

    Why stay in Oakland with a new stadium popping in 2014 35 miles away in your market? Or move to LA when there is no guarantee anything gets built out there for 5 years?

    Their lease is up after 2013….just in time to move to a state of the art stadium in Santa Clara that we all know is “going to happen”

  35. Also as for the VC 250M figure…..That was my guess a while back on this blog that # was for infrastructure, to move businesses, and transportation.

    Oakland has maintained that the team would have to build the ballpark themselves. 250M is not feasible….I see why it was the “least feasible” site when they did the study of 6 East Bay sites back in 2001.

  36. Oakland has averaged about the same attendance as the LA years did, despite 1) the PSL fiasco, 2) some people are still bitter that they left the first time, which obviously wasn’t the case in LA, 3) much more expensive tickets (tickets were $14-42 the last year in LA, a minimum of $41 the first year back plus the PSL costs or surcharges, 4) generally crappier teams. and 5) playing in a much smaller facility (so a sellout can’t inflate the average as much).

  37. @Sid, I’ve never lived in Boston. And for your information I’m not a front runner either. Grew up around here in the 80’s after the Raiders had abandoned the Bay Area (which is part of why I have no respect for them now. They left once like a cheating wife and yet Oakland was ready to whore itself out to take them back). And I’ve never like San Francisco or any of its teams. Which ruled out being a Niners fan. So I went with the next best thing, my Grandmother’s team (and she’s lived in Boston for 84 years). So I adopted her team. And that was LONG before Tom Brady or any form of winning football came to New England.

    @eb, frankly as I said that’s part of why I hate them. They left. They lost any right to be loved by the Bay Area in my mind the moment that happened. Sure they came crawling back because it was convenient when they weren’t able to get their various stadium plans like Irwindale done down in LA. But it wasn’t out of love no matter how much they tried to fool (successfully I might add) the people of Oakland. They’d leave again in a heart beat if they thought they could make a buck off of it. That’s the Al Davis way and the Al Davis legacy.

  38. Cut myself off before I was finished.

    But to answer your earlier question Sid. The real reason I have that level of hate for the Raiders is quite simple. If not for the Raiders return, the A’s wouldn’t be in the shit position they’ve found themselves in today. They came back, fooled Oakland into destroying what was my favorite ballpark, caused Oakland to so hate sports teams so much through their lawsuits and other horseshit that Oakland has not done jack shit since to try to help and now keep the A’s. Frankly I’m always amazed any A’s fan can honestly be a Raiders fan, particularly any A’s fan who is in Oakland or is “Oakland Only”. The Raiders are a large part of why the A’s are leaving. Remember back in before 95 the renovation for the Coliseum was going to be a baseball renovation to make it better for baseball (maybe enough that it would have been a northern analogue to Angel Stadium). And on top of that the city and the A’s would still enjoy a good warm relationship today. Instead we have the situation as it is… And a big part of that blame lies with the Silver and Black. At least as much if not more than should lie with Brown, Dellums, IDLF, Quan, Wolff, and Fisher

  39. @Dan It sounds like you have/had a problem with Al and Oakland politicians not Raider fans, Kenny Stabler, Tim Brown, Jim Otto, etc. The opposing argument is that there would have been no Oakland A’s without the Raiders being established at the Coliseum initially and if the Raiders wouldn’t have left the first time the A’s would have left instead. Everything happens for a reason. Hopefully your Pats beat the Jesus out of Tebow this week.

  40. Yeah the then Laney College site was dismissed very early on by the JPA due to infeasibility due to cost. So it’s not a shock it’s still too expensive ten years later a very short distance away.

  41. @Columbo
    With all due respect, the East Bay Golf Courses you are touting may have slope and difficulty which can compete with Pebble, but I can’t think of 1 course in the East Bay that is ranked in the Top #100 Courses in the World (maybe I missed that one). My point about Pebble is, with a brand new ballpark in SJ, with its weather on average 8-9 degrees warmer than ATT, and its proximity to the Monterey Peninsula, it makes another argument A’s management can use to attract free agents. Over the years the Sharks have been able to attract free agents to SJ because of The Tank, the location (NorCal weather), and because of the proximity to the Monterey Peninsula. Sporting guys, like baseball, hockey, football, and basketball players like to play golf. Look at the number of pro athletes that live in Arizona and Florida – where all the golf courses are – and good weather.

  42. @letsgoas Have you noticed that the “Bay Area Sports Guy” rarely discusses non SF teams? He’s got a pretty deceiving handle. Not sure I trust his thoughts on the A’s.

  43. A lot of Giants fans would be happy if the A’s either contracted or left the area entirely? Now that’s a bunch of bull shit! I have yet to meet one Giants fan who thinks either way. Heck, most I know think it would be great if they moved to a new yard in SJ; two healthy franchises in the Bay Area’s two largest city’s. Who wrote that article anyway?!

  44. I followed Bay Area Sprys Guy for about a week on twitter and realized he was kind of useless unless you are a Giants fan.

  45. OT – Caught a portion of an interview with Larry Baer on KNBR yesterday. He was asked about any new developments regarding the TR to the south bay. His answer was pretty much what you’d expect…our postion is still the same….we’ve had dialog with the commissioner… frankly we don’t see any changes. He did say that “….we’re obviously part of a 30 team network, and we need to operate in the best interest of that 30 team network….” His last comments seems to indicate that the Giant’s position may be softening just a little. To my knowledge, I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone from the Giants say “they need to do what’s best for baseball”.

  46. Sounds like MLB told the Giants – sorry, we need to fix this A’s mess whether you like it or not. Sounds like the Giants were approached with a compensation package and did the usual, “We refuse to negotiate” nonsense. But they’ll be overruled because the votes are there. Next it will be time for the Giants to suspend their selfish, greedy, anti-San Jose ballpark activities….When Wolff said a vote is the best way to deal with it, he probably already knew the votes are there.

  47. “frankly we don’t see any changes” obviously means that SCCo will still remain Giants territory…AS WELL AS BEING A’S TERRITORY! Shared territory just like the other two team markets and how it was pre-1992. No loss for the Giants market value; no changes indeed! 😉

  48. i was listening to knbr with krueger and personally turned the station off when he said baer was on next, didn’t want to hear his snarky remarks towards the a’s and sj but sounds as from what is being reported above that even the sf brass finally realizes that they’re not gonna to get what they ulimately want.

    speaking of krueger he even sounds like he thinks the a’s are doing the right thing by trading away the value assets to build a team for a new park in sj. along with fitz, he’s the only pro a’s to sj radio host on that station that i’ve heard. course bruce also had slusser on yesterday near the end of his show on 1050 and he’s still skeptical even though in the past year i’ve emailed him a few times and he agrees the a’s should be allowed to move to sj but has always felt sf will be the deciding factor. but in reality it’s up to mlb decision to allow the a’s to move to sj and from all the news and speculation over the past few months especially, it sounds like it’s getting very very close to the announcement that sj will happen.

  49. @ Rayburn’s Son – “I can’t think of 1 course in the East Bay that is ranked in the Top #100 Courses in the World (maybe I missed that one).” Sarcasm noted. Let me see if I can explain my point more clearly. It appears to me that you are saying that a new yard at Diridon would be closer to Pebble, therefore, this is one more justification for a move. I am merely countering that this should have zero bearing on a decision to move. Here’s why. I don’t know if you’re a golfer yourself but, if you’ve ever played at an extremely difficult course, you’d know how frustrating a round of golf can really be. I’m going to go out on a limb and speculate that very few MLB players are scratch. I’ll even add that most are weekend hackers. Hence, a trip to Pebble for them would be better off as a weekend vacation rather than an outing because they might quit after 5 holes if they haven’t lost all of their balls first. To your point that there are no “east bay” courses in the top 100 in the “world,” I agree. I’ll also add that there are only 7 courses in our beautiful state in that top 100, 2 of which are in the city of SF. That doesn’t take away the fact that there are 15 public (not private) courses in the east bay that are ranked in the top 100 in Northern Ca. The next largest collection of courses is 13 on the Monterey Peninsula, including Pebble. The slope ratings (for hackers) on average is 132.4 and 134.1 respectively. The course ratings (for scratchers) on average is 73.6 and 74.8 respectively. Since the average difficulty of a golf course lies somewhere in the slope range of 112-115, I would say that these differences are miniscule, even insignificant for weekend hackers. People hop on planes from all over the world to play Pebble so I personally don’t think having a stadium in SJ being 40 minutes closer to Pebble is a very good argument, especially for pro sports players. As a comparison, I could say that having a stadium in Oakland is closer to French Laundry, a top 100 restaurant in the world (was at #32 a couple of years ago). Although I would never use this as an argument for a stadium in Oakland, I must admit that IMHO it would apply more to pro sports figures who often like to dine out at fine restaurants. I am of the opinion that both of these arguments are absurd and are in no way applicable as an argument to building a stadium in either location.

  50. Favorite East Bay course? Wente. To look at.
    .
    To play? Chabot.
    .
    15th hole has a money view.

  51. @ Jeffrey – I will admit that I played Wente 3 times for free, thanks to wholesalers who took us out. I liked it but I played when the weather was 100 degrees and it kind of sucked because of that. I was lucky enough to play Stonebrae in the Hayward hills one time thanks to a doctor friend who is a member. That is a great course with unbelievable views. I have been playing Chabot since I was 11 years old ( a long time ago). My favorite hole is the 18th by far. Where else is there a nearly 700 yard, dog-leg left, par 6? I had the privilege of playing with a former renowned coach for Bishop O’Dowd H.S. (my alma mater) many years ago and witnessed him eagle that hole. He hit a perfect drive that kicked left and rolled partly down the first hill. He hit a 3-wood from there and it ended up just above the lower gully. He chipped his 3rd shot to within 10 feet and holed out. Unbelievable! That has always been my favorite course but I now live in San Mateo County and I have found a great course in Crystal Springs, a mere 10 minutes from my house.

  52. I play softball with the head groundskeeper at Wente. He plays a solid 3rd base, but his swing has a nasty uppercut.

  53. @ gojohn10 – That is to be expected from a golfer… I think. I can recall playing golf one morning when I was about 13 with my older brothers. I think we played at Willow Park in CV, one of the narrowest courses I’ve ever played. It was a Saturday and I had an afternoon baseball game for my Babe Ruth team that I played on. Not that it makes a difference but I was one of the better hitters on the team and I struck out twice and popped out to short in that game; quite uncharacteristic. My swing felt “off.” Ever since that game I never played golf within a few days of a baseball game. Superstition or is there a correlation? I’ll never know for sure.

  54. @ gojohn10 – If his name is Carl Spackler he probably says, “He’s on his final hole. He’s about 455 yards away. He’s gonna hit about a 2-iron I think. It’s in the hole!”

  55. @Columbo: The good Lord would never ruin the best round of MY LIFE!!!!

  56. I think the A’s should move to San Jose so they’d be closer to Disneyland.

  57. If they stay in Oakland theyre closer to Tahoe

  58. @Columbo
    I appreciate that you may be a self-proclaimed golf course maven, however you entirely missed my original point. The point is that having a golf couse, such as Pebble – Spyglass – Cypress Point, within a 1.5 hour drive from the place you play 81 games a year, is another selling point A’s management can make to potential free agents……I never implicitly meant that it was a reason for the A’s to move to SJ….those reasons were already decided….Moreover, look where the NHL had their most recent meetings…..Pebble…

  59. @MLB, has anything leaked about Selig meeting with the Giants? Wasn’t that supposed to happen a couple of weeks back?

  60. Article in the Mercury News today about the “Stand for San Jose” scam. Sam Liccardo’s quote says it all – Frisco lawyers backed by Frisco millionaires forming a group called “Stand for San Jose.” The Giants are using our court system for this garbage. Go ahead and keep supporting them, people. Let’s go Giants!

  61. Excellent article by Seipel today. The “Stand for San Francisco” lawsuit is the pure definition of frivolous; completely 100% baseless! Nice read.

  62. @pjk, thanks for the heads up on the article. It was a good one.

  63. F*&*^%$ Raiders secondary sucks! Leading by 14 with 4 minutes to go and they give up the long ball. How can you let a receiver get 200+ yds receiving? Back to .500. At least Denver got smoked.

  64. I love it. Nothing like a last minute Raider choke to make an already Tebow fail day even better…

  65. Tebow played pretty damn well- Denver defense failed- Go ‘9ers! Btw- glad to see the stand for sf group exposed publically- what a freaking joke- gonna be an uncomfortable Monday for that secretary!

  66. Tebow ran 30 yards in the wrong direction and coughed up the ball for an eventual score… yeah he did pretty well today for the Patriots. @Columbo ??? about ???

  67. @ Dan – Oh I was just trying to clarify if you are elated that the Raiders choked again. No big deal if you are. Not trying to start a furor. Everyone has their own favorite teams. As a Raider fan myself, I would have preferred that the Raiders tied for the lead in the West (since Denver lost). Personally I’m embarrassed because I malevolently presumed with 4 minutes to go in the game the magnitude of their lead was unobjectionable for a win.

  68. Yeah I was elated. But in deference to your even keeled response and own embarrassment I will restrain myself from any further mockery.

  69. @ Dan – Are you a 49er fan?

  70. I’m pretty sure Dan mentioned he is a Pats fan.

  71. Whatever football team we root for, don’t ever forget our common bond: OUR A’S AND OUR FUTURE NEW BALLPARK! I think the news re “Stand for San Francisco” pretty much confirms we’ll be popping some champagne very soon 😉

  72. Giants are determined – determined – to impose their will on the people of San Jose. But you Giants fans keep wearing your SF caps and keep on rooting for them.

  73. DocK is correct. I’m a Pats fan. Have been for 20 years. I can’t stomach rooting for SF teams. The very idea has always made me physically ill.

  74. @ Dan – Nice! Me too.

  75. I’m still not used to the fact that the Pats are considered a glamour franchise more so than the Raiders or 49ers. Could you imagine that being said in the 70’s/80’s or even the early 90’s? The sports world is a funny place. Good win over Denver though.

  76. Early 90’s? Until 2001 it would have been unfathomable. And it wasn’t really even accepted until after about 2003. But they have easily been the best team of the last decade.

  77. Having lived in Boston, I can say rooting for New England teams makes me as sick as rooting for SF teams.

  78. @Dan
    @Columbo

    Here is a priceless quote from Howie Long….

    “Sullivan was yelling at me throughout the game from the New England sidelines. He’s the jellyfish of Foxboro,” said the 6-foot-5, 275-pound Long, who also referred to the Patriots’ general manager as “a wimp” and “spineless.”

    “At the end of the game I walked up and faked like I was going to hit him to make him squirm,” Long said. “I wish there weren’t laws to protect this guy.”

  79. A picture’s worth a thousand words:

  80. @Brian

    Thanks for that priceless photo. I totally forgot about that. How awesome was that?

  81. pjk says:
    December 18, 2011 at 7:47 AM pjk(Quote)
    Article in the Mercury News today about the “Stand for San Jose” scam. Sam Liccardo’s quote says it all – Frisco lawyers backed by Frisco millionaires forming a group called “Stand for San Jose.” The Giants are using our court system for this garbage. Go ahead and keep supporting them, people. Let’s go Giants!

    ^^^^^
    I think most of us with a level head realize that Stand For San Jose front by the Giants is freakin utter joke!

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